[thejager]

im also surprised by no Hererra

[thejager]

He’s going to pitch

book it

[thejager]

Love the Sal Perez idea…was thinking about it at the deadline, but obv. they werent going to do it then

Sal with Knizner while Hererra works more…and Knizner or Hererra start taking over more in 2024, PErez’s bat as just DH is well worth it so him transitioning out of full time catching could work

Offseason Moz special (Arenado and Goldy) deals for Perez and Trout would be crazy and totally lean into this window while not really stunting any growth of players ready immediately

Trout
for
Burleson + Hudson + Mejia + Lottery ticket

Perez
for
Yepez + Bedell

re-up Montgomery

-Edman (SS), Trout (CF), Goldy (1), Arenado (3), Perez (C), Gorman (2), Carlson (RF), ONeill (LF), Donovan, Noot, DeJong, FA LHer, off-day starter)
-Mik, Monty, Jack, Matz, Libertore/Pallante/Reyes/Thompson/Woody/VerHagen
bench: Donovan, Noot, Knizner, FALH hitter, Gomez/DeLuzio/rotating need
pen: Helsley, Gallegos, Hicks, Genesis, Stratton, Jojo, Packy, Woody/nonstarter/Fa-vet

[thejager]

Could Trout be had?

Trout + Ohtani is crazy, but Trout feels like something that might work (and we have the position available) given the Goldy and Arenado deals

Back in reality… 😛 Mitch Haniger is my man from FA, not too young, not too old, 3 position capable, all around solid player who won’t demand enormous money or huge years

But if Moz wants to go all in on this Goldy Arenado generation…finding a way to bring Trout to StL and get him the recognition and fans that he deserves would be awesome…and tbh as long as we don’t lose Walker in the deal from the farm…i’m good with just about anyone else being included

[thejager]

Yepez seems guaranteed

Hererra makes sense

Jack and Matz

Libertore, Thompson seem options depending on need

[thejager]

I disagree about outside help for catching, there is not much of a “hole” if we go with Knizner and Ivan, seeing as Yadi has not provided much production this year and we are ok, and really he hasn’t been a main contributor to the offense for a while

With the limited external options and still pretty high upside of Hererra as an internal option, as well as having our strongest other offensive options we have had in a long while, i think this is the perfect time to give Ivan and Knizner a run without feeling like we have to “need” them to be offense contributors to be worthwhile

I mean when we brought up Yadi there was NO expectation of offensive contribution and that worked well…now Knizner and Ivan are not defensively Yadi…but the same tactic of letting them figure it out for a year or two is fine…if it really fails then look outside at that point

CF depth and OF is my main concern…with SS being potentially worrisome as I dont see DeJong being here after next year and while Edman showed he is fine, Winn seems still a few years away and other than that we have nothing else really

Ketel Marte trade? as the all in one solution SS/CF with plenty of upside….would cost a bit though

[thejager]

We don’t have 3 starting level outfielders on the roster, and no natural CF….Dickerson is a platoon and gone after this year, I love Noot’s energy but it doesn’t always translate, Donovan and Yepez are not outfielders, Burleson seems a stretch for being defensively able and isn’t on the 40.

Walker is late next year and we still know nothign of his capability in OF defense, Hurst and Deluzio are AAAA emergency only guys.

we need another real OF and one that can play CF

I am still a fan of Haniger, strong player, not young enough to command huge money or years, but can play all 3 spots, power and enough speed. At his best he is still a middle order guy (we don’t really need) at worst he will hit for decent average and fine defense (let’s just hope all his bad luck is gone with the weird injuries). Him and Carlson in CF is far better than ONeill or Noot being there.

He protects us from lesser production from ONeill, Carlson, or whatever 3rd outfielder you throw out there from the system and doesn’t force any issue of bringing up young players before they are ready or playing guys out of position

Haniger
3yr deal with 4th yr mutual option that is player friendly on pricetag

Waino comes back (if not Quintana is option)

Monty gets extension (and Jack probably too)

Knizner and Herrera are given the year to compete and show who is best, but you bring in a vet catcher who is fine being in AAA. You have to give them a year to prove it, they have been planning for this transition and there is no way they are going to just act like they didn;t have a good enough plan, too much pride in how it was all done. They aren’t just going to bring in a catcher and say “We failed”…only outlier is if they want to get Contreras…pluck him from Chicago in FA and invest in that huge arm and bat, knowing they can improve his game calling

Hudson traded for decent prospect (unless you can’t get Haniger and use Hudson to bring in decent 3 OF position OFer…like Tapia from Toronto)

1 signing
1 trade
1 important minor league contract signing (catcher)
several extensions (Monty, Jack, Mik, Carlson, Quintana if Waino retires)

That feels like a typical offseason and reasonable and attainable plan

[thejager]

Agree to disagree on Quintana, i get the speculativeness, but i think they wouldn’t have got him this year if they didn’t think they might want to extend him and were confident in him.

Asa for Conforto, that’s good option too, but if we are speculative of Quintana performing shouldn’t we be even more suspicious of Conforto returning to form? I like Haniger and chose him because he has already returned from injuries and has shown so far he is pretty much who he was before and as he enters FA he at least can say he is healthy and performing.

Conforto seems a far bigger question mark. If he can make his way onto a team before the end of the year and show he is all there (Cardinals would be a good looking place to try it IMO) then he is def worth a good look. Though i would say he has a higher profile than Haniger and others and had he been healthy this past offseason he woudl be on a club with a pretty hefty contract

[thejager]

I think you have to try a year of Herrera Knizner before you decide it’s a failure. However that does mean you need to make sure you have production elsewhere.

I also think that with DeJong’s “resurgence” they are giving him next year too (with Edman backing) so i think SS is not an issue and they are going to play out his contract and deal with SS after next year

When Carlson was moved to CF i think it was right for now, but i am still no convinced we arent just doing for the rest of the year and then look at the market. Having said that i do think they look at RF options too.

A CF/RF starting caliber vet is what i see position player wise, other than another journeyman defensive vet catcher for either MLB depth or AAA…I think Mitch Haniger is a perfect look…some injury concerns but isn’t young at 31 but not old…the injuries (freak mostly) may leave him a bit spry for his age. He shoudln’t command huge money nor a long contract. Solid all around player

After that, re-sign Quintana, he is somewhat a known commodity now to the team, that has value

try an extension for Montgomery and Flaherty

Jack, Mik, Matz, Montgomery, Quintana is a fine rotation especially with Hudson Libertore Pallante even Reyes lurking

Maybe you dangle Hudson/Libertore for a younger CF/RF with control…Hudson’s groundballs play and Libertore’s upside is plenty of value to find a quality piece back, regardlessi still look for a vet CF/OF to complement Carlson, ONeill

Waino retiring or not is a huge decision and if i am Moz I get that answer ASAP before FA opens, perhaps even now behind the scenes

Quintana
Haniger
Romine (or equivalent)
trade Hudson for Tapia from TOR (though float Matz maybe as they know him)

go with: (roughly)

Mik, Montgomery, Jack, Quintana, Matz
Edman, Carlson, Goldy, Arenado, Gorman, Haniger, Oneill, DeJong, Herrera
Helsley, Geo, Genesis, Hicks, Pallante, Packy, Stratton, Junior, Verhagen
Knizner, Tapia, Donovan, Noot, Yepez

3 lefties in rotation
plenty of power
speed
good defense
room in pen for people to stand out or take roles with performance
bench is pretty set and with not much at AAA ready to come up right away it looks solid and versatile

with Molina, Waino, Pujols, coming off the books I think there is enough money for Haniger and Quintana and raises

Solid and perhaps unspectacular offseason, but should put the Cards back in the postseason with the right veterans brought in

[thejager]

They do have value…and the returns as you stated are valuable too…thus the higher cost

i will say that both of them are bit too high on BTV IMO

But i did not say BOTH top end additions… A veteran CF NOT Laureano and Murphy…or go with Laureano and gamble on Yadi and an offseason acquisition

It’s not always about the specific

a catcher who can actually hit some + veteran or defensive CF

Murphy and Laureano were good examples, both probably would be too pricey but that is not the point

Christian Vazquez would have been a cheap (.4 value) who went for 2.5, Barnhardt probably could have been had for nothing and despite his downturn would provided GG level defense and a knowledge of the central

Robles at .9 from Nats…VReyes from Tigers isnt great but something, maybe Grossman or Meadows, maybe Pinder or McKinney from As, I think Kyle Lewis or Haniger could have been options, heck even Gallo if viewed purely for CF defense and hopeful power wasnt a bad look for a few months, maybe Jo Adell at 2 but overpay a bit, or go Lagares or even our old pal Sierra for a fun throwback

I don’t know…it’s not my job to know all of them

the idea is what the point was…the specific players not so much

IMO…Murphy is worth it…and wouldnt kill the system (though the asking price was probably too high given that it seems MOz went to them really late after the Romine deal as we ended up with the AAAA Allen)

a vet cheap guy who can cover CF was totally getable beyond Laureano

[thejager]

These deals arent bad…it’s the ones not made that make it underwhelming

Laureano or a vet CFer for insurance (like when we brought in Corey Patterson in the Rasmus deal) would have been possible not costly and helped

Sean Murphy may have cost a little bit, but it wouldn’t have killed our future by any means, and it would have gone a long way towards easing our concerns for catcher production next year after seeing knizner not be ready and maybe never be and Herrera obviously needing more seasoning

Both of those moves should have been possible, instead we go into the stretch run knowing that if Carlson gets hurt or needs ad ay off that we are putting a defensive liability in CF, which only diminishes any value in quality pitching
that’s why it is underwhelming not because these players or trades are bad…but they are just so one dimensional that while they may have solved one issue they created a new and potentially very bad one in the process

Depending on Noot in Cf is bad…asking Oneill to go there or Edman again or some kid who has never played in the majors…is bad planning

and could have been avoided without mortgaging the future

Walker learning OF doesn’t dull that point either

[thejager]

YAY!!! A grammar police person!!! How great!!! I also didn’t and don’t spell everything right, use periods well or properly use ellipses and all sorts of other crap that doesn’t matter when writing a post seeing as understanding the content isn’t required as you seemed to understand it clearly.

Therefore as you DID understand the content…correcting it is only a means to try to try to disrespect and devalue the sentiment or argument through a means that has NOTHING to do with the argument.

as for your NON-insult driven content

A. you really think the Yankees take him on and lose Jordan as an option at the least for all this time if he isnt coming back.
B. IF he doesn’t come back then i have to imagine the prospect is no throw away no name…thus the price to “do business” may just be a bit higher than you think right now…so evaluating it as a “business” deal remains to be seen and therefore
C. That injury CAN be problematic…but there are plenty of players who return just fine…and again why would another team take that chance if it wasnt positive?

Now why don’t you grow up and if you have a conversation instead of throwing insults as means to do so at the beset

I am done with you…respond if you want but I am done with you and won’t respond to you again

pathetic, keep your replies focused on baseball instead of using a message board as a means for creating a false sense of superiority over someone

People like you are why people DON’T engage in online conversations… i hope you feel superior because you can call someone out something innocuous and if you want to know the truth… BOTH are correct, unless you are writing FORMALLY…which an online message board is definitely not AND by my means of other incorrect informal phrasing and structure would indicate

https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/could-couldnt-care-less

Sorry Brian

[thejager]

I could care less whether it is fair or not, it isn’t smart when you have no plan B for CF

had they also acquire a cheap veteran CF or similar player like Laureano from the As just to be safe that would be different

Bader’s foot is an issue but one that is temporary and obviously a high chance of contribution this year otherwise the deal would not have happened

Also…Carlson is no model for not getting hurt and having nagging injuries

Carlson in CF for a while is fine, even if he goes down a short stint of someone out of position is fine

This move without a corresponding move is so dangerous and extremely shortsighted

When we start an OF of Dickerson/Oneill Nootbaar Donovan/Yepez and all that mediocre pitching goes to waste because no one can play solid outfield defense and their offensive production is average at best as a whole

The move isnt bad in vacuum….this isn’t a vacuum and our outfield HEALTH and production have been pretty atrocious across the board this year…despite a few weeks of Carlson hitting ok

[thejager]

so…who plays CF now when Carlson pulls a hammy playing a new position for so long? Noot? really?

So who is the CF offseason guy we are going to acquire to make any of this make sense?

Also, i really hate this media blitz hype after the deadline on Walker playing outfield…AND ALL THREE at that! BS

He shouldnt see StL until September 23 at best otherwise we are just rushing him to cover poor moves

[thejager]

how utterly underwhelming

somehow made our offense and depth worse by shipping Bader out for 1 year of Montgomery

overpaid for 2 months of Quintana

That Montgomery move might as well be our offseason SP move too from the looks of it…replaces Wainwright
Jack, Mikolas, Montgomery, Matz, Hudson/Pallante/Libertore/Reyes

We are one Carlson hamstring pull from starting a truly horrendous defensive outfield and little to now offensive production

[thejager]

Murphy and Blackburn help the team now and next year +

not flashy, but might help

I’d still try to find OF help too though…maybe sneak Laureano into the deal? amazing defender, and a little pop

[thejager]

oops…wrong thread

bummer to miss out…

[thejager]

man…i can’t believe Cardinals couldn’t best that offer to Oakland… i mean they also got Trevino…who, while not being as dominant as once before is plenty valuable for a pen

-Get Soto
-go back to Oakland for Blackburn and Murphy
-get Rich Hill

-if the right deal is there for Fulmer or Jiminez from Detroit…do it

That might just be enough to win a championship if we can field

Carlson
Goldy
Soto
Arenado
ONeill
Murphy/Yadi
DeJong
Murphy/Donovan/Pujols
Edman

Nootbaar, Dickerson, Donovan, Pujols

Waino, Mikolas, Blackburn, Hill, Hudson/Pallante
Helsley, Geo, Genesis, Fulmer/Jiminez, TJ, Junior, Packy, Ovi/ZThomp

[thejager]

IMO you overpay for Soto..or Ohtani… they are unique talents and their skills and value are worth goin farther than is comfortable…Trout about 3yrs ago would have been the same

Montas, Rodon, Castillo, Bieber, Plesac etc etc, and all the other options out there…not so much…

To be honest, I think they need to get a starting pitcher or two, but they may not have to be great pitchers. The Cardinals have a history and a knack for finding the right veterans at decent prices that work out well.

Just like the farms ability to continuously churn out solid pitchers, they also have knack for finding decent starters that can be impactful.

Either from the farm or from the waiver or cheap filler they seem to find them. Some of the biggest games for the Cardinals have been won by guys who arent aces

That doesn’t mean we don’t go fishing, and we need more than a Crismatt…type hopeful acquisition

High end get feels like Merrill Kelly, interesting get Paul Blackburn or Brad Keller if we are going young and a bit of upside left…the AStros might be moving one of their pitchers so maybe you can snag an urquidy if you are lucky

If we go full on vet

Rich Hill, wacha, bumgarner, grienke, pineda, gibnson, eflin, quintana

[thejager]

love thinking on Soto but…i was thinking one of two deals that feel more Moz like

not flashy but helps but costs a bit more
Sean Murphy + Blackburn

or really less flashy(ie cheaper) (and Tucker isn’t hitting right now) but probably helps

Tucker + Pineda (Maybe add Fulmer)

This year is REALLY feeling a lot like when we went for it successfully offloading our top prospect Rasmus for a bunch of spare parts…but they were THE spare parts we needed Edwin Jackson, Corey Patterson, RZep, Dotel and cash

Now i don’t think we need to deal Walker for spare parts…nor will they…but this is an opportunistic moment and the Cards have some salary space and some well regarded prospects of all types from high ceiling to MLB ready or MLB playing now young players

A Soto plus Corbin type deal is fine with me to a point…

But i wonder if a smarter get like Blackburn and Murphy (adds offensive catcher help and future backup help…and very well starting pitching RIGHT NOW starter with control and is cheap who may long term be end up being a swing starter type)

Murphy and Blackburn probably require something that wouldnt be great to lose…but it probably won’t take the best ones…Murphy seems to have the highest value on the simulator site..but it seems a bit too high IMO…still i think there is somethign there to be had

[thejager]

Kelly form AZ for the rotation seems getable…but i worry we have done too many deals with AZ, Kelly and Weaver havent quite worked out…they may feel like they need to get more as they didnt get enough for Goldy

Michael Fulmer from DET for the pen is worth trying, and Detroit knows they are rebuilding

I still think Blackburn from the A’s is worth attention…he’s having a good year so you are paying a but for a late breakout…BUT he is 28 so no spring chicken…he has 3yrs of ARB left after this and is cheap so you are gonna pay a bit more for him but he looks a late bloomer to me

I’d prefer a bit of control if i’m giving up good prospects

Perez is interesting but a rental like him will cost too much…if we go rental it will be for old vets like last year IMO or straight salary dumps

For me…Blackburn and Kelly plus Fulmer rights the ship i think…but i imagine we may only get one rotation piece and they will not help the pen at all

[thejager]

i like the deal, but the Cards need arms now. And while Capel isn’t much, he could be useful to a deal to help now.

I wondered about Austin Nola whose paycheck will be going up next year in his first ARB deal, he’s 32 and can hit and is fine behind the plate.

Alfaro is playing well for them right now and they have plenty of catchers in their pipeline.

Maybe we could snag Nola in a deal where we take on Pomeranz add to Capel something else decent but not great.

Nola doesn’t fix the pitching concerns, but it might allow us to move Knizner in a deal and put Hererra back at AAA. Yadi returns we have a fine catcher in Nola to help, and next year we have Hererra able to take his time to take the job from Nola and then Nola is aa fine backup in his own and great backup option if Herrera struggles.

Knizner could be attractive to several clubs especially as a secondary addition to a deal.

Adding Pomeranz doesnt help much now…but is worth the gamble for 2023, and Nola helps now in one way and next year in another.

[thejager]

I’m not giving up on Carlson…. in fact i might be more willing to deal ONeill than him

Montas seems the big fish… but maybe we could snag Paul Blackburn who is having a great year and may be suited to non starting role if ever need be

Might not be as flashy a name, but might come cheaper

[thejager]

You may be right about the money….but i think it is do-able..and ONLY for a guy at an age and skill as Soto…my opinion

As for extensions and Boras

Holliday was a Boras client and did just that for Cardinals

A good deal is a good deal no matter when you get it…and it would have to be for the Cardinals to get out ahead

Still…I think it is the best chance we have at landing a generational talent for a while seeing as we don’t dive into the upper echelon of the International Market where stars live…nor do we pick high enough in the draft…

[thejager]

I say give him the big contract, just give it to him on arrival with lower first couple years (until Goldy is out going into 2025)

Walker + ONeill + Yepez + Libertore + Burleson + Oviedo
for
Soto (and we re-sign him to MEGA 12yr deal immediately with first two years 23-24 being a bit lower but higher than his arb worth)

Edman-SS, Goldy-1, Soto-RF, Arenado-3, Gorman-2, Carlson-LF, Yadi-C, Bader-CF
-revolving DH (per handedness) of Pujols, Dickerson
bench: Knizner-C, Sosa-3b-2b-SS, Donovan-2b-3b-SS-LF/RF, Nootbaar-OF
-Dejong?

-prospects remaining: Herrera, Zach Thompson, Rondon, Reyes?, Woodford, Baez, Wynn, Nunez, Tink, McGreevy, Mejia, Gomez?, Torres, Capel, Julio R., Baker, etc etc

Yeah, prospects are thinned…big time…but there are still plenty of potential MLB players there and with Soto and others already in MLB we have time to replenish

Yes, you need to rely on FA for filler OFers and other players, but effectiveness is always mitigated by
those players as well as the talent of younger players because you have the horses carrying you

No one cared that we started Taguchi, or J-Rod in those big years…or how bad Kozma hit, or whatever other marginal or 1 dimensional talent surrounded the big guns of Pujols Renteria, Edmonds, Holliday, etc. etc.

After Waino, Yadi, Pujols are gone…then DeJong…that is a lot of money…then when Goldy is gone there is a lot more…yes Jack and Carlson will get extensions…probably Edman and Gorman too…Hudson…but I don’t think having 3 high paid stars is all that bad of a plan..we already kind of do it…if you give that long extension to Soto and have it a bit lower earlier (not even crazy low) it all evens out.

And, yeah you have to rely on the FA market for some players…but pitching wise Mo and co. seem to be able to find them pretty well…hitting talent…eh…not so much…but it wont matter with the big horses in there

As for contract…They were willing to go BIG for Pujols AFTER 10 years of dominance, I don’t see why they wouldnt go BIG for Soto who has dominated for 5years and is younger

Prospects are just that… Soto is a star…a crazy young and good one…big money makes sense for him…as does trading the farm for

I would guess most if not ALL clubs would happily had over their farm systems and a huge salary for Albert Pujols at 23 , I think Soto is just that…except he actually has more experience than Albert does by that age

Look…i know it isnt going to happen…but i just dont think it is as far-fetched an idea nor do i see it as inherently poor planning or poor value and asset management

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