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Bader – gone
O’Neill – .227/.306/.385/.691
Carlson – .240/.316/.386/702
Nootbaar – .221/.322/.433/.765
Dickerson – .290/.319/.434/.753One of the worst hitting outfields in the major leagues?
The only real offensive bright spots as far as newcomers on the near horizon are Yepez and Burleson. Gomez and Walker maybe later in 2023. Key question – can we afford to give up a lot of critical defense for possible internal offensive improvement?
Although Walker has a great arm he is a defensive liability with his glove in the OF and at 3B. FO may consider him a DH only. Also Burleson is slow in the OF and that’s another defensive hindrance.
How do we know Walker is a defensive liability in the OF? How many games has he even played in the OF?
EDIT. Walker has played 24 games in the OF this year and has made 1 error. He has started games in all 3 OF spots.
The bright spot is that we have all of these guys controlled for at least another two years and several have proven before that they’re capable of producing. I feel like we are back in early 2021 again with the bccran anti-outfield sentiment.
Fwiw I think the OF is O’Neill-Carlson-Walker-Nootbaar by next season mid year and will be excellent.
Bccran, yes, but Nootbar nand Dickirson have Bern 2 of the best hitting OF in the league the second half.
Yepez, O’Neil, Burlson? I think.Dewitt believes in Cardinal baseball. That trio would not provide it.
“One of the worst hitting outfields in the major leagues?”
I’m glad you put a question mark after that sentence bccran. The correct answer is no. In fact the StL outfield is top ten by ops+.
If we consider defensive value and base running, the outfields ranking only improves.
They are a pretty sad hitting bunch. Regardless of ops+. Where they rank I don’t know but that’s neither here nor there. Carlson has definitely at best stayed the same this year, maybe stepped back. Noot is inconsistent. Very much so. Dickerson has been great this second half and defensively he is fine. Yepez doesn’t rate to even own an outfielders glove. Maybe dh, spell goldy at first. O’Neil, it’s just hard to say. The club took a hard stance against him with the money but gave bader a good deal so I don’t know. He may be out the door this off-season. Defensively we have regressed in the outfield a bit. Not a lot of errors I don’t think but they hardly give those anymore so you can’t go by errors. A bunch of guys on this team including the great arenado would have far more errors if they gave errors the way they used to and should do now.
The actual data is not nearly as bad as some folks assume. The Cards are NOT one of the worst-hitting outfields in MLB. Not even close.
2022 OPS Cardinals rank of 30 MLB teams.
LF: .771 #7
CF: .693 #13
RF: .713 #13So, while they could certainly be better, LF is in the top quarter and CF/RF are in the top half. Year to year, LF and CF are down, but 2022 RF is actually slightly better than 2021.
As far as Walker being a DH only, I would love to understand where that is coming from so I can re-educate myself, because it directly conflicts with what I’ve read, heard and seen.
Yeah I was ready to give Dickerson the old heave-ho but now he may be the best of the bunch….
I think O’Neal will bounce back next season and Carlson will do what we thought he was going to do.
Nootbar is probably solid utility.
Would love to have an offensive dynamo out there at one of the three spots…..just didn’t really happen in 2022 for one reason or another.
Good point, ZTR. Shouldn’t the corners have close to an .800 OPS (or higher)? Or at least one true bopper?
Every time our outfield takes the field, its only natural to view them as sub-par, because they are sharing the field / lineup with two mvp candidates and a legendary hall of famer. Under that lens they are sub-par.
But, the context of this topic is our outfield offensively, vs mlb outfields offensively, for the season.
That should also include Yepez and Donovan, who have combined for 63 outfield GS and each owns a RC/G well above league average. Those two combined have actually made one more start than Noot’s 62 GS.
Our depth in the OF is helping carry our offensive ranking vs most mlb outfields. Once you include Bader and Dickersons contributions, we have penciled in seven different players who have all produced near or well above league average.
Develop from within is alive and well on the StL position player roster, and the outfield depth is a good example.
We traded away Bader and no glaring depth need was exposed. We lose his replacement Carlson to the IL and is he really missed in the lineup? Yepez has one second half PA, but the Noot steps up and fills the need. Burleson? He couldn’t even crack the roster until rosters expanded. This is what develop from within is supposed to do, fill depth needs.
No, the pipeline hasn’t produced the next Pujols in the outfield, in fact we don’t even have an all-star out there, but we don’t have a Fowler type sucking up 100 GS like a black hole either.
Complimentary outfielders entering their prime years is a good position to be in. Anything top 10 in mlb is a good thing.
There won’t be a DH available for any of these outfielders. DeJong is playing himself out of a job as the everyday SS. That means in 2023 Edman has the SS job and Donovan the 2B job. Gorman will be the DH. So if some of these guys want to see playing time in the outfield next year they are going to have to earn it for the most part.
Now, should we pursue and land a free agent SS this winter then that changes things. Then again, does anybody expect that to happen?
r/Esteemed Rat
I expect our OF next season to be O’Neill LF, Carlson CF, and Donovan RF, with Nootbaar as the 4th (or maybe Donovan LF, O’Neill CF, and Carlson RF). I don’t think Dickerson will be back since we will have guys making the league minimum who can do what he does.
Gorman will be the 2B and Yepez/Burleson will share DH duties with the occasional OF appearance.
O’Neill and Carlson will need to bounce back next season to solidify their standing for 2024.
Well it would depend on what managements expectations are next year. If they don’t win it all this year but feel they are close, another year of hoping O’Neil or Carlson come around may not be in the cards. I could see Dickerson back if he finishes out strong
I do not have much concern about the outfield. O’Neill and Carlson would seem to have a good chance of being better than that have been in ‘22. O’Neill for sure as he has been better, and Carlson is young and talented, and rushed to the big leagues to some degree.
Both of those guys and Nootbaar are athletic and multiple ways of bringing value. And you have to think at least one of the three potential young hitters will develop into a good offensive player, that being Burleson, Yepez and Walker.
Donovan is a wild card as he can fill in just about anywhere.
There is enough quantity, and a lot of potential to be better than they stand right now, and where they are now is not horrible. I am not including Dickerson as I am looking more forward than current, but he has come on in the second half. And that is not surprising as like O’Neill and Carlson, Corey is a better hitter than he showed early on.
Rats and I have Donovan starting at 2B and I’d love it, but Gorman at DH pushes Yepez and Burleson into the outfield more.
GS has Donovan starting at a corner OF, with Gorman at 2B, and Yepez / Burleson at DH. This pushes Noot to a bench role, until an injury happens.
Oli has O’Neill, Carlson and Noot in the OF, with PDJ, Edman and Gorman up the middle and Donovan as the DH.
Oil’s way has the most flexibility. He can rest anyone but the catcher at DH, and just plug in Donovan at their position. If someone is dinged up, but not IL, same scenario, plug in Donovan. It’s the least disruptive way to manage the position players since Edman is needed full time on the middle infield.
But, he doesn’t let Donovan get lost in the shuffle, which shouldn’t be surprising, since leadoff gets penciled in first.
2011 Outfield –
Holliday – .296/.388/.525/.912
Jay – .297/.344/.424/.768
Berkman – .301/.412/.547/.959
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