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These deals arent bad…it’s the ones not made that make it underwhelming
Laureano or a vet CFer for insurance (like when we brought in Corey Patterson in the Rasmus deal) would have been possible not costly and helped
Sean Murphy may have cost a little bit, but it wouldn’t have killed our future by any means, and it would have gone a long way towards easing our concerns for catcher production next year after seeing knizner not be ready and maybe never be and Herrera obviously needing more seasoning
Both of those moves should have been possible, instead we go into the stretch run knowing that if Carlson gets hurt or needs ad ay off that we are putting a defensive liability in CF, which only diminishes any value in quality pitching
that’s why it is underwhelming not because these players or trades are bad…but they are just so one dimensional that while they may have solved one issue they created a new and potentially very bad one in the processDepending on Noot in Cf is bad…asking Oneill to go there or Edman again or some kid who has never played in the majors…is bad planning
and could have been avoided without mortgaging the future
Walker learning OF doesn’t dull that point either
The Cards had to throw in a potential PTBNL in case Bader doesn’t make it back for the playoffs. That should tell you what you need to know about Bader’s status. So we were always going to be depending on Carlson anyway. It’s just a matter of what we need more…a starting pitcher for the rest of the year and next year, or a center fielder who may not play again this year.
BTV has Murphy at 57.8 and Laureano at 32.1. That’s 89.9 combined value. They have a combined Herrera, Burleson, Graceffo, McGreevey at 71.2. Meaning it’s still short and I wouldn’t come close to do that. Neither of them would be close to being cheap because of age and team control.
They do have value…and the returns as you stated are valuable too…thus the higher cost
i will say that both of them are bit too high on BTV IMO
But i did not say BOTH top end additions… A veteran CF NOT Laureano and Murphy…or go with Laureano and gamble on Yadi and an offseason acquisition
It’s not always about the specific
a catcher who can actually hit some + veteran or defensive CF
Murphy and Laureano were good examples, both probably would be too pricey but that is not the point
Christian Vazquez would have been a cheap (.4 value) who went for 2.5, Barnhardt probably could have been had for nothing and despite his downturn would provided GG level defense and a knowledge of the central
Robles at .9 from Nats…VReyes from Tigers isnt great but something, maybe Grossman or Meadows, maybe Pinder or McKinney from As, I think Kyle Lewis or Haniger could have been options, heck even Gallo if viewed purely for CF defense and hopeful power wasnt a bad look for a few months, maybe Jo Adell at 2 but overpay a bit, or go Lagares or even our old pal Sierra for a fun throwback
I don’t know…it’s not my job to know all of them
the idea is what the point was…the specific players not so much
IMO…Murphy is worth it…and wouldnt kill the system (though the asking price was probably too high given that it seems MOz went to them really late after the Romine deal as we ended up with the AAAA Allen)
a vet cheap guy who can cover CF was totally getable beyond Laureano
This is an offseason idea of course. If Waino retires, I don’t think it’s a big secret the Cardinals are going to need a top starter for 2023 and the Indians seem like a very possible trade partner.
I saw an interview with Triston McKenzie and couldn’t have been more impressed. He would definitely be Jordan Walker and Liberatore worthy, with 4 years of control left. Whether they will be looking to move him or not is a different question. https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mckentr01.shtml
In a more realistic target, Shane Bieber might end up tradeable for Cleveland. He’s making 6M this year and will likely end up at 10M or more next year and controlled for 2023 and 24. I wouldn’t trade Winn for him, but I’m sure a package could be worked out. Would McGreevy, Yepez and Woodford get it done? Probably not.
I think Waino will come back next year. I think he wants to get to 200 career wins. Regardless, the Cards should go after a top end starter and the Guardians have several to choose from. Bieber would be an excellent choice.
Bieber’s fastball is trending slower each year. That’s a bit concerning, although he is still getting good results. No way the above package gets him…but I’d go Edman-Burleson-McGreevy and see if it gets you in the ballpark. Looking at MLB Trade Values, it would be balanced toward Cleveland with my group. They might have to give up Hence or Graceffo instead of McGreevy.
I assumed my package was probably low balling. Something along those lines is probably about right ST25. Can we include Hudson?
McKenzie would cost a fortune in prospects, but I can’t say enough about how impressed I was by his interview. Very good kid, very good pitcher, and 4 years of control. They definitely need OF bats (based on this year, I’m no expert on their farm system), would Walker, Burleson, Yepez and McGreevy get him?
Any other 3+ years of control pitchers out there that are “ace level” that you folks can think of?
I am not trading Walker unless it is for someone like DeGrom, Scherzer, or Cole. I am not saying any of those three would be traded (they won’t) but someone of that caliber.
Speaking of DeGrom can’t he opt out at the end of this year?
I think Verlander can be a free agent also. They are both up in age but still highly effective when healthy.
deGrom can and will likely opt out after this season. He is the guy I hope the Cardinals go after this winter. He’ll be 35 next June, so he’s not young. But, I think the Cardinals would be wise to start targeting guys like deGrom or Verlander on short-term, high dollar deals moving forward. They need to get away from this Matz-type signings. They are cheaper based on AAV, but they end up causing issues for them in their budget and roster when they ultimately don’t pan out. The Cardinals need to either start going with young guys or load up on short-term deals for guys who either have limited time left on their career (deGrom, Verlander) or are trying to reclaim their careers (Quintana, Cueto).
I agree Kyl. Go after a high end veteran on a short deal with high AAV or a reclamation veteran or a young guy with promise. This middle of the road types get you nowhere. Matz is going to be another Fowler, Leake, Cecil, or Carp extension contract. A total waste of money.
I see reason for hope with Matz. Not saying he will be Alacantra good but not a total waste of money either.
I have my eye on Gabe Moreno in the Toronto organization. I’m sure others must have taken a look at him, too. Catcher with a modicum of callup experience this year, high average, low power. 22 years old. Probably not someone they want to give up, but, what do they need that we have extra?
Has this thread all but died because the trade deadline passed or because the team is playing só well?
There has been a recent, similar thread titled “Free Agents for 2023” that has caught most of the discussions previously found here.
CC, what do you expect the FO to do with DeJong? Will they pay him to go away like Fowler’s last season under contract?
I don’t anticipate anything changing with DeJong except decreased playing time next year. However, if a viable backup, other than just Donovan, suddenly appears, then DeJong could do a Fowler.
Recently Oli has PDJ and Gorman in a platoon, with Edman as the constant flipping from SS to 2B.
That’s roughly 75% starts for Gorman and 25% for PDJ. Surprisingly both had a 96 ops+ for August.
Depends on how much they value hás defense. Despite his offensive srruggles he still is on about a 1.6 War pace on 550 ab’s. That is not far off of being an average player. Maybe Dejong gets traded in the off season?
I expect PDJ to begin the’23 season with the Cards. If nothing else he is still a very good defender and can hit the occasional HR. Fowler didn’t really have anything to offer by his last year here.
But if PDJ continues to hit .150 next year I am sure the Cards will cut bait. I don’t see the harm in giving him a month or two to see what he can do before flushing the $9.5M away. He really isn’t blocking anyone next year and would probably be a bench player anyway.
I would like to see Edman, Donovan and Gorman be the three middle infielders next season.
If Pujols / Dickerson walk, Yepez and Burleson could take over the DH duties from Donovan / Pujols this season.
PDJ is logjambing the 2023 roster imo, without any additional subtractions this winter. It’s just harder to see right now without Yepez / Burleson on the 2022 active roster.
This offseason will be interesting for the SS position. I don’t see how the Cardinals can expect DeJong to be anything more than a reserve, which is probably what they should have done with him several years ago. He had position versatility coming up in the minors. I believe he was a catcher early on in college before shifting to third. The shift to SS seemed to come very late in his professional career. I don’t understand why they haven’t tried to make him more of a utility player, which is where I think his highest value exists. This year has made it obvious, he cannot be an everyday SS at the major league level. If you can’t rely on him to be able to play all over the infield next season, they probably should look to move on from him.
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