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well not really…as not all teams WANT to make a move for the players in whatever trade that happens, and in THIS case i identified relievers, primarily late inning guys who would definitely be helpful to us and our woes especially right now
but “losing out” as i put it had to do with missing an opportunity to get players that could have been useful for US…and the ones listed all went relatively cheaply…even Robertson was in a package with two other good players and only returned one good prospect…
i would have been very happy giving up our equivalent of what Washington did for two very good relievers….
IF we are going to make a move i think we need to do it now…whether that is buying or selling or both…but as the deadline closes the chances get slimmer
Donaldson deal plus a Neshek deal
or
Stanton plus Ramos deal
or Ozuna or Yelich deal plus Neshek or Ramos or Hand deal (though i think the price for Hand is too high but he does have a lot of control)we have already lost out on Madson, Dolittle, Robertson, CLippard, and Phelps as possible RP upgrades
I think both Tui and BRebbia have done a marvelous job…getting Tui back into high leverage situations at Memphis is a good idea IMO.. Sierra did his job but was obvious he was not going to stay up once Grich was healthy…Fryer being gone…seems pointless as Kelly will just sit around unless they force Yadi to not play…
If all Kelly is is a better backup catcher for us then fine…but his value right now is as a frontline catcher prospect who could replace Yadi in 3-4 years… why we are utilizing him as a backup catcher…not even pinch hitter really as the backup catcher rarely ever pinch hits, seems pointless.. there is nothign wrong in giving him more playing time at AAA… he was brought up to for a once a week pinch hitting option and 1 start a week with maybe 1 game where he comes in late for Yadi in blowout? waste and only will devalue him
I hope Fryer passes through and goes to AAA i like him as a backup…i could care less about his bat…defense and arm are the only things i care about with a backup catcher…unless there are 3 being kept up or they both can play other positions well…
Duke, Grich, Kelly wont make the team worse…just arent much of a difference…as all have question marks about effectiveness and potential playing time (for Kelly)
Grich will get a chance to start a couple games to see if he turned a corner…before Piscotty returns..sending JMart down…
I am hopeful Duke is back to being Duke and he COULD be a nice boost to the bullpen as he is more than just a LOOGY…but i dont see him as making the 9th inning much better as i dont think he is a closer
Kelly wont get the playing time to show off his talent, and i dont think he is better than YAdi in any aspect of the game right now except maybe running…AND Yadi’s contract means we are invested in him so i dont see this as an audition for anything more than backing YAdi up…as we arent going to trade him or bench him…. IF Matheny came out and said we would sit Yadi 3 days a week and Kelly is a means to see less drop off in production to give Yadi rest then that is a good…but that wont happen…and Yadi is still a force defensively, gamecalling, and at the plate…at BEST Kelly is his equal at the plate right now…and that is far from the a certainty…upper .270’s in AAA doesnt mean much..nor does 10 HRs… and last year when KElly came up he didnt hit much either…he is better than that but if we think he is an automatic upgrade to YAdi that is misplaced…and even as being better than Fryer is still a question…a move for move’s sake IMO
To make THIS team this year and next year better we need an impact bat…period.. why not get it now and make at least two teams better instead of just one or one third of one…
take the money on and get Stanton…snag Ramos with him and call it a day…Stanton and Ramos shore up the bullpen and lineup for this year and at least until 2020… we have the money coming in to pay for it…if you can get Yelich or Ozuna too…sure go for it…
the team needs revamping, why not do it right now when we could do so AND potentially get into the playoffs.
maybe Lynn and Oh are gone….Rosy is a long shot…cArp no way and Matheny isnt going anywhere…
saying “fire Matheny” at this point is like when people bring up Hitler in an argument, it kind of stops the discussion at that point…
whether Matheny could be manager can be discussed but it isnt going to happen right now, Mo and him are thick as thieves…if Mo fires him then it is seen as his mistake which means he would be seen as the problem…which wont happen as he was just promoted…and as Mo and Dewitt are thick as thieves…so unless Mo is fired …which wont happen we arent going to see any movement there… maybe the outcry in the offseason could make it more palatable…but the front office has been prepping everyone for a down outcome to the season since that press conference….and they havent done anything but move coaches around to help fix it…
they have had their 6 weeks to evaluate…either help the team, and MAtheny compete and go for it…or trade the tradeable goods for some value and bring up the kids…
i know right? so now Carson gets to sit on the bench and not play…and then when given a day to play if he strikes out or doesnt play well his trade value will tank
he is a golden ticket as a trade item right now…sparkling and wonderful…super high value…bringing him up does next to nothign for us unless we play him 2-3 days a week…which i seriously doubt unless Yadi plays 1st more of Carson dusts off his 3b glove which i highly doubt…
what percent less wins do we have? I feel like it may be pretty close..
we were 5 games over on the 20th (game on the 19th was postponed) ,we are 1 game under
(49-44) vs (46-47)
3 less wins…but feels a whole lot different
12% less wins from last year would be roughly 5 more losses… not 3 BUT we are 4.5 games back of the playoffs…
coincidental? probably… but still interesting… and even if not purely coincidental…it tells us what? if the Cardinals win more games they get more people to watch and thus better ratings? ha!
still fun to look at the records last year vs today…feels like this team is way worse than even last year’s club
but… we were out of the race pretty much for the division but were right in it for the Wild Card…. this year…reverse that..pretty much out of the WC but still in it for the Division…
Had to give up some good players to get them but the Yanks made out pretty well…seeing as the Nationals seemed to have a better offer for Robertson alone in the offseason
Nationals got MAdson and Dolittle for almost nothign too… swing and miss by us there IMO…we could use one more solid backend piece either would have been perfect
I dunno…i am feeling with being only 4 back…we are going to make a move…Stanton or Donaldson..something big and helpful long term…
Maybe a Stanton + Ramos deal
combine that with trading Lynn and Wong to the Royals maybe? (if we decide to buy and sell)
Wonderfully pitched game… thanks Wacha
replay isnt going anywhere..if anything they will add to it…. it will obviously be revamped to try to streamline…btu with replay some of the plays take longer to look at..
as for 1/2 for and against… MLB doesn’t want a World Series decided on a mistake…nor does any team, or player want to be cheated out of something when the tech exists to get it right….
so…the league, the players union, and the owners all have a vested interest in wanting replay
As I see it, i start to agree with MCCarver more and more about pace of play and game lengths, if you want to do something about it…. eliminate the meetings at the mound…you get one from a coach (or you could adapt to it include a catcher)…and the second meeting means the pitcher must be removed… that’s it… the catcher’s and infielders coming in all the time really slows it all down…
i think the low value they got for a premiere rental bodes well if we wanted to go after someone like Jay Bruce… if it doesnt cost us much of anything it might be worth snagging him… he definitely would help with lefty power..not saying i really want Jay Bruce…but since AZ didnt give up much..you have to think you’d give up even less for BRuce
I believe a lot of the anxiety about a move right now, isn’t all about trying to win this year only.
The issue is, that the lack of a middle of the order bat isn’t something we have solved for next year either. People can complain about why we make a move to win in this “horrible” or “terrible” year, but the fact is that if we want to compete next year, even if we throw away this season we will be staring the same issue as we walk into ST next year.
Sure we could go after a FA signing…what Moose? Hosmer? JD Martinez? Do you really want to overpay for a 28/29/30 year old in the year before the best FA’s are available? And are any of them true team changers?
Yes, we want to win now, yes we have some moveable pieces if need be, yes we have some oddly shaped pieces that have value. But many people’s desire for a move is not just to try to salvage THIS season, it is also looking forward to next season, and as much as tanking and fire sale will bring back some prospect, it wont make next year that much better either.
Donaldson is a nice gap guy, helps us this year and next…then re-evaluate and see what the big 2018 offseason looks like…
Stanton makes sense…long contract big money..but an opt out…but the length to the opt out and end of contract allows us to replenish whatever we lose…health is a concern as someone else brought up before too, but he is a star and a power hitter…and a good RF with a cannon arm… he might make going after a big FA in 2018 not happen as his money is huge…but then again he is the type of player who we would go after…(as much as he isnt my top choice if he was in that offseason FA class)…
– and perhaps that is a good idea…maybe we wont be able to woo the top of the heap in that FA class, but maybe we can snag the other good guys in that class for more reasonable sums…that class is stocked and we may be able to find a relative bargain to pair with our already acquired superstar…plenty of other smart options fill into the controllable longer term solutions (Yelich, Ozuna, any other good young player, but those prices get steep fast)
Perhaps another look woudl be Longoria from the Rays …again…he’s 31 now…signed until 2023 with ap retty reasonable contract…he hits for good average, decent power, and plays good defense…yes he is post 30 but perhaps targeting him would be another way to help now and later while also leaving us money to go after someone big this offseason (pitcher?) or in 2018.
Short term solutions like Frazier etc. dont really interest me nor the club as they have said…however i think that comes with a caveat…if the price is low enough i think they would…JD Martinez for a low level pitching prospect? sure…same for Jay Bruce? sure…they could be useful if the price is right…but they dont seem to fix 2018 going forward…unless we really like JD mMrtinez and think we could get him signed in our exclusive window after a trade for him…i dunno…
long winded as always….but buying and selling this year is not ONLY a reflection of THIS year’s chances and play…it can be a major factor going forward… most of you know this I;d think… arguments against buying now that are founded on THIs year’s poor chances just arent fundamentally solid as i have said and as the front office seems to indicate with their stance on rentals…
I personally thought they’d target Archer from the Rays…but Quintana works pretty well…and is a shorter drive 😛
Quintana to the Cubs for their top 2 prospects… plus a couple more lower profile prospects…
Cubs just did what they needed to shore up their problems spot, and help mitigate probably moving on from Arrieta…they gave up a lot but got a good controllable arm that will still allow them to go after another big fish in FA if they want
smart? I dunno…Eloy looks the part, and their farm looks pretty depleted now…
So from the Cardinals looking at value…we would probably had to offer Kelly + Bader/Sierra + Flaherty or Weaver…or probably Kelly + Reyes
Another good get for the white Sox…so recently picking up:
Moacada
Robert
Eloy
Giolito
Kopech
Lopez
Ceaseadd to Collins Burdi Adams Basabe
Future WHITE SOX
Lineup: Eloy, Robert, Abreu, Moacada, Anderson, Collins(DH), Basabe, catcher?, 2b?
Rotation: Rodon, Kopech, Fulmer, Lopez, GiolitoPretty impressive collection…and i am sure i am leaving out plenty
Cub flinched first within the division for going after winning the division by finding outside help…who will move next? Brewers (pitching), Cardinals (power), Bucs and Reds (pitching)
i can see why it makes sense to someone…but it seems heavy for a 1+ rental
How about Flaherty instead of Reyes….Diaz instead of Perez..leave Alcantara in
more than most would want to give up…but is still manageable
Donaldson leaving after 2018 pretty much guarantees us a good compensation pick…so that player would hopefully replace Sandy or Jack down the road…Diaz is value controlled and is a good buy low option….Jack and Sandy are both exciting…and highly rated
the star power of Donaldson alone means we have to give up more than will be comfy…no matter the production this season…
I think we can replace Sandy and Jack though it does sting …and i think Diaz is already looking pretty replaceable with DeJong tearing it up
still i dont see anyone near Donaldson in producing fear in the batting box anywhere in our system…that has a lot of value…
Realistically? or just pessimistic?
perhaps:
Oh to Nationals for a decent but not top prospect
Lynn to the Yankees for a good but far away prospect
maybe Gyorko to the Sox or Yankees for a good closer prospect
Quintana for Kelly and more then we want to give for him
Donaldson for way more than anyone wants to give up
probably Neshek for more a good prospect…and will get lambasted as it is a rental on NEshek and this young pitcher (probably) is gonna be awesomeRealtix trades are hard to imagine…IMO you start out optimistic…then lower the value of your players…raise the perceived value of the opposite teams players….then add in more pessimism on fairness by upping the offer to see more unfair and that usually feels right..
Duke as a trade chip is pretty intriguing…though i cant imagine we’d get much as he wont get much time to show off his health before the deadline…still…if we see his value for this year as absolutely nothing…then anything in return would be worth it..
still i think he could be pretty nasty for us in the pen for a playoff push
i think people have forgotten how good he was last year…he isnt a Randy Choate out there he can be pretty dominant out there in setup like situations…
IF we sit him for a game or two people complain and want Carson up and playing, if we play him people complain he isnt getting enough rest
i agree with Pads that he is just a different breed
How was Jose optioned? I thought he was out of options? I thought that is why he made the team out of ST
Any word on Diaz? is there a timetable for him to return?
also any word on who the closer is? I am starting to consider giving Brebbia a shot at it, i like his stuff
nice that they didnt give up on the game…fought back…just coudlnt overcome the mistakes thatled to runs… it happens..
Still dont see why this team cant find a way to win the division though…especially once we get wong Diaz and Fowler back… Duke will be a nice addition too I think…
agreed…he isnt really a traditional rental…i think the interest in him lies a lot in that…JD Martinez Frazier…they might fit but they are .5year guys…that’sa rental
but if you arent gonna go rental…then shouldn’t you jump on the deal as quickly as possible to maximize how much of NOt a rental it is?
will be interesting to see what the Cardinals do…buying AND selling is a tough line to tread…
saw that the Nationals were inquiring on Iglesias from the Reds…i’d be in on that too..i figured he wasnt available…
that’s a pretty good idea…Osuna and Donaldson…
think we may have to give up something else nice too, but i like your thinking
cold hard facts are that regardless of our record we are one week of good play from being the division leader and getting into the playoffs, which does actually matter
we probably dont need anyone to still make a move, but if we did get him we would have a bonafide threat in the middle of our lineup…someone opposing pitchers have to be aware of…that lets the guy in front of him get better pitches and the guy after him too…
we dont have anyone that scares anyone out there…and all respect to Gyorko but one almost full year of good performance does throw away his poor performances as well, and he is pretty streaky…and while he started off hot definitely has went through lulls…Donaldson is an MVP player…Gyorko is not…he didnt even get the AS bid from our team this year…and that;s with his versatility and solo HR hitting bat
even if Donaldson has missed a bit of time and is a little older, just inserting him in the lineup will make the guys around him better…
he wont come cheap, and we wouldnt getting him for nothing…
he would help the team the day he comes in as well as all of next year, and still give usa return in FA or as trade chip next year
i dont like moving on from Gyorko…i just dont see how he fits unless as starting 3bman..
Piscotty isnt going anywhere, Carp isnt going anywhere, Fowler, Wong, Yadi, probably not Diaz either…that leaves two spots…3b and LF…Gyorko and Pham/Grichuk
3b we have little impact level depth anywhere… Gyorko is nice, and has played better defense than many thought…but after him what do we have? Wisdom? Dejong looks mroe like a SS,…and?
LF we actually have a lot of options…Pham is well now, Grichuk can still be important, Bader ,Sierra…all pretty much available right now to help out and goign forward…and even some more OF down the line too)Why not fill the spot on your roster that doesnt have much depth with a veteran until a youngster emerges.,…we’ve already seen several OFer emerge as viable MLB talent..possibly even impact level
Donaldson for 2 years fills a nice void, and gives the option to potentially even re-sign…
2018-19 is probably going to be the biggest FA offseason ever… and there is impact talent all over the place to be had at every position…
snagging a guy right now gets us to that offseason…and wouldnt handcuff us from going big for Machado if we were willing to put up the money
Donaldson makes a lot of sense for the team..it isnt a .5 year rental…and we have a bit of a logjam with our depth..he fulfills a role we dont have anyone that can fill…
I’m fine with giving up Gyorko, i like him as a super utility but as middle order everyday thump i’d prefer Donaldson
Wong seems as if he is going to get 2b if healthy, they committed to him with that contract, and he has played pretty well this year, plus we have backups for 2b
Donaldson covers 3rd (and we have part time backups anyways)
A Donaldson trading Gyorko as the central part of the deal is fine with me…even if it includes some good prospects… Gyorko and Donaldson together on the team doesnt seem to mesh unless Wong is gone…and i dont see that happening…
Gyorko was had for Jon Jay… at the end of the day if someone would have said Jono Jay plus a couple good/decent prospects for Donaldson i’d have been fine with that
a 2017/2018 lineup of
Carp/Fowler/Donaldson/Piscotty/Diaz or DeJong/Pham or Grichuk/Yadi/Wong
not bad
I think the Jays could use middle infield depth so maybe someone like Garcia might have some value too…not a world beater but they seem pretty thin in the middle infield…maybe Diaz would be interesting to them?
Gyorko +
-outfield prospect
-infield prospect or MLBer
-2 pitching prospects 1 good and 1 lower decentfor 1.5 years of Donaldson…with chance of re-signing him OR getting draft pick compensation after he leaves (or we could trade him next year)