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We can’t go into ’23 with only Kizner and Herrera. Chances are that they won’t be able to fill the offensive hole we have at that position. And if one is hurt…. they would need to acquire a C in desperation and Mo doesn’t do well in those situations. Bottom line… we need to acquire a starting-type catcher in the off-season.
Even without Bader…. the outfield is stacked. Nearly all of them (8) are in position to have a breakout season or return to better years. Carlson-O’Neill-Nootbaar-Dickerson-Donovan-Burleson-Walker and Yepez?
I’d go with that list before signing someone from outside.
The rotation for ’23 is similar to the outfield. I see Montgomery, Matz(because of $$ from FO
) and Mikolas as being givens. After them there are Wainwright(almost a given)Hudson-Quintana(needs to be signed)-Woodford-Pallante-Flaherty(fragile)-Liberatore. If all are healthy that’s almost too much pitching.Infield will remain the same plus Edman and someone from that versatile OF list.
Heck… I know things will change by opening day but this may be Plan A.
I have to agree on the catching need. I understand they have spent a lot of time developing Herrera and I tend to prefer rolling with homegrown talent. That said, catcher is such a beast of a position for guys to develop. The past two heirs to Yadi have not exactly looked strong at the big league level (Carson Kelly, Knizner). Kelly has had extended playing team in Arizona for the past two years and has only been okay at the position. I think Knizner would be a step below him if he wound up being a full-time starter for multiple years. Herrera might turn into a solid player, but catching prospects give me some pause because it just seems a lot of them get the big leagues and can’t really manage the full plate of responsibilities thrown at that position.
With that said, if the Cardinals can pull together a package of Sean Murphy that is not exorbitant, I think they should go after him with the expectation he is their catcher of the present and future. He’s a proven commodity at the big league level, who can hit and plays a stellar defense behind the plate. He’s only 27, too. I would be all in favor of grabbing him and expecting him to be your regular catcher for the next three years. If that blocks Herrera and gives the Cardinals a trade chip to plug in other holes, so be it.
Even without Bader…. the outfield is stacked. Nearly all of them (8) are in position to have a breakout season or return to better years. Carlson-O’Neill-Nootbaar-Dickerson-Donovan-Burleson-Walker and Yepez?
I agree except I wonder if we have enough quality depth at CF. O’Neill and Nootbaar can probably play there if Carlson is injured but I don’t know how that would go long term. O’Neill is always an injury waiting to happen.
The rotation for ’23 is similar to the outfield. I see Montgomery, Matz(because of $$ from FO
) and Mikolas as being givens. After them there are Wainwright(almost a given)Hudson-Quintana(needs to be signed)-Woodford-Pallante-Flaherty(fragile)-Liberatore. If all are healthy that’s almost too much pitching.That’s the problem. They are never all healthy and we never have too much pitching until Mo swings some trades the last week of July.
The only reason Murphy is up for discussion is because the A’s have Shea Langeliers, who they just called up and is considered a top prospect, as well. They got Langeliers from Atlanta in the Olson deal and he will be cost controlled for the next three years, while Murphy is going to start seeing raises in arbitration.
Counting Langeliers, 3 of the A’s top 5 prospects are catchers. One is in AA and another is in A+ ball.
In Herrera’s defense, he turned 22 in June and has less than 175 Triple-A at-bats. Hopefully outside help would be short term rather than long, but you never know…
Maybe Dickerson is the 4th OF for 2023! How much to bring him back? OPS over 1.000 his last 30 days.
I was just going through the list of FA catchers that will be out there this offseason. Knizner hasn’t been great, but he’s gotten his numbers up and unless they go big on a Contreras or Murphy, there aren’t many that would be a huge upgrade considering his low salary and the fact that at his age he could definitely improve.
Tucker Barnhart (32)
Curt Casali (34)
Jason Castro (36)
Robinson Chirinos (38)
Willson Contreras (31)
Austin Hedges (30)
Andrew Knapp (31)
Sandy Leon (34)
Martin Maldonado (36) – $5MM vesting option
Omar Narvaez (31)
Roberto Perez (34)
Kevin Plawecki (32)
Austin Romine (34)
Gary Sanchez (30)
Kurt Suzuki (39)
Christian Vazquez (32)
Stephen Vogt (38)
Mike Zunino (32)I disagree about outside help for catching, there is not much of a “hole” if we go with Knizner and Ivan, seeing as Yadi has not provided much production this year and we are ok, and really he hasn’t been a main contributor to the offense for a while
With the limited external options and still pretty high upside of Hererra as an internal option, as well as having our strongest other offensive options we have had in a long while, i think this is the perfect time to give Ivan and Knizner a run without feeling like we have to “need” them to be offense contributors to be worthwhile
I mean when we brought up Yadi there was NO expectation of offensive contribution and that worked well…now Knizner and Ivan are not defensively Yadi…but the same tactic of letting them figure it out for a year or two is fine…if it really fails then look outside at that point
CF depth and OF is my main concern…with SS being potentially worrisome as I dont see DeJong being here after next year and while Edman showed he is fine, Winn seems still a few years away and other than that we have nothing else really
Ketel Marte trade? as the all in one solution SS/CF with plenty of upside….would cost a bit though
Marte is not really playing SS anymore, and his CF defense is suspect. I’d be happier rolling with what we have. I really like Winn to be an All Star in the future.
CardsFanInChiTown,
Thanks for the list. Of all those catchers there is about only one that I would be interested in and that’s Contreras. If we cannot sign him then as far as I am concerned it’s Knizner and Herrera.
r/Esteemed Rat
The defense is what concerns me at the catching position. Depending on the plans for robot umps, a catcher’s ability to steal strikes with proper framing has immense value and Yadi is one of the best ever in this department. I also worry about calling games. I just read an article this week about how Jordan Montgomery is throwing is fastball significantly more with the Cardinals because Yadi picked up on the value of the pitch and the lack of use. Stuff like that worries me for next year because Yadi’s brain and ability to call games and figure out how to use his pitcher to get hitters out is not an easily measurable skill. It also is not something that can easily be passed along to others. That is more in the art of catching and I worry this staff could struggle without his input or involvement in the planning and execution of a pitching approach. If I had more faith in Maddux’s skills in this area, I might feel better about getting a young catcher involved. But, I don’t feel confident Maddux can fill those gaps.
If you are looking tô replace Yadi’s intangibles, it cant really be done. Pages would probably come closest but he hás some work tô do with the bat still.
The model the team has been using allows the kids to play until they prove they can’t. Remember Lane Thomas, Justin Williams, Edmundo Sosa?
Herrera will get spring reps with Knizner, and a vet who brings an added dimension such as a left-handed bat will be added.
Narvaez would be the dream.If anyone is looking for catcher and SS help it’s not coming.
They may tinker with the pen but I think the team is pretty much set.
Rat, I agree after fully digging into the list. Some of the names on that list I didn’t know much about (basically the AL guys), but not one seemed to be a true upgrade over Knizner except for him and I don’t see any possible way they sign Contreras.
Signing him or trading for Murphy would basically end the “Herrera or Knizner is the catcher of the future” narrative. I am excited about the Bernal kid in PB though. Murphy has 3 years left so a possible bridge to him if they are more excited about him and use one of the others as trade piece for an ace.
That is quite a change. Not too long ago, you wanted the Cards to get rid of Dickerson right then. And you weren’t alone.
It is a change. He finally settled in and is playing very well. The first few months were brutal. Coupled with that, are the disappointing performances of late by Carlson and O’Neill and the trade of Bader. Yes, things do indeed change.
O’Neill OPS 2022 –
Apr. – .529
May – .582
June – .905
Jul. – .631
Aug. – .692Carlson OPS in 2022 –
Apr. – .488
May – .837
June – .937
Jul. – .682
Aug. – .674Guess we may have an OF problem.
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