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Seems silly to argue back and forth! Of course an ace number 1 and 2 don’t guarantee wins but over the long haul they will Winn more often than the 3 or 4 starters! Seems obvious to me! We don’t have a solid 1 or 2! We have a bunch of good 3 4 and 5! So, when we send out out 3 and 4 which are really our 1 and 2 they won’t fair as well against a true number 1 and 2! Hence our 1 and 9 record in our last 10! Quintana and Mikolas are good pitchers but Nola and Wheeler are better! If they match up every time are Nola and Wheeler gonna win every time! Of course not but they will win about 2/3 and that’s good enough! People feared playing the Diamondbacks in the 99- 2002 era! Why? Schilling and Johnson! We don’t have a single starting pitcher that when we play the other fan base says oh no not him! We just don’t and haven’t since Carpenter and a much younger Wainwright and for 2 half years Flaherty! We won’t most likely won’t win until we have at least 1 and most likely 2 of those guys!
Forsch31, I’m a realist I think! If you go back and look at our last 10 playoff games our starting pitcher against there’s they had an advantage in almost every game! Our guys might have pitched well or over there heads but the other starter was better! That makes it very difficult to win! We need at least 2 starters we can put out there and think to ourselves, this guy can go against anybody and win! Carpenter comes to mind! I seriously doubt Flaherty is ever gonna be that guy again! Right now winning the division and getting to the playoffs is enough for most! I’m getting older now and I’d like to see one more flag go up before, you know! For that to happen whether by trade or FA we need to get some aces!
Forsch31 has it right IMO! Yes we have a long list of pretty good pitchers but without a solid 1 or 2 we have little chance to progress very far come playoff time! The only way we progress with this group is if someone just comes out of nowhere (Thompson and Woodford) and suddenly become 1 and 2 and then who knows! I doubt they would even get the chance without serious injury though! Contreras signing makes us division champ, to get beyond that would take a miracle with current staff!
I would trade Carlson and Liberatore in a heart beat! We would be getting a player that we HOPE Carlson Might be! Do it!
I just don’t understand why the organization and many people on here continue to HOPE that all of a sudden Flaherty is gonna be what he was 4 years ago and that is our strategy for a number one pitcher! You know I keep waiting for Kate Upton to knock on my door and tell me she is leaving Verlander and wants to marry me! I think it is about as likely to happen as Flaherty all of a sudden being a top of the line number one again!
JJ, totally agree. At least 80% for pitching! Our lineup is good enough! Some have posted on here of our starter depth and it is true we have depth! The problem is they are 3,4 or 5 types on a great staff! We desperately need a 1 and 2 but at least a clear 1. People like Mo keep hoping Flaherty is gonna wake up and be great again but most feel that is wishful thinking! Whether we buy or trade we MUST acquire a clear number 1 starter! JJ, if I could I would make you GM but alas I am just a poor forum responder!
1toughD, that is or normally the route but people have gone from AA to mlb and excelled immediately! Michael Harris for the Braves comes to mind! I’m hoping Winn will get a shot in spring training and he will take it from there! We need outfield worse than infield right now so perhaps Donovan could move to outfield and Winn and Edman can play middle infield! IF Winn and Walker turn out to be above average MLB players we need them sooner rather than later!
Winn will play SS! If it is not for the Cardinals it will be somewhere else! Edman would have won a Gold glove for sure if he had played 2b all season! I don’t think he will win one at SS but the competition is kinda weak in the NL so he might! If Edman and Winn start together I don’t think Edman will be at SS! Time will tell but Winn has the natural tools to be the best defensive SS we have had since Ozzie! Can he hit mlb pitching? Only one way I k ow of to find out!
Jj-cf-stl
Best comment of the day! I think that is exactly what we need to do! Winn instead of Dejong is a no brainer and Walker in outfield would be great! We will find a place for Donovan, kind of a super sub as you say! I would like them to look at Christian Vasquez as a possible full time catcher! He hits pretty and and defends pretty well and would not cost a fortune! I would hire you to take Mo’s place if I could! Lol!Rats buddy, great article! I haven’t thought about this way in awhile but before the start of the 2022 season I was telling people the Cardinals had the best young outfield in baseball ( Bader, Carlson and O’Neill) now one is gone and the other two were terrible! That is a major part of the problem! We have gone from best young outfield in baseball to can we find 3 competent players to play the outfield! Big difference!
Edman is a gold glove 2b but not at SS! The organization would be doing him a favor to move him back to 2nd! Winn is great defensively! Whether he can hit or not I don’t know! Should have been brought up in September and given at bats to try and see! That would have been better than giving Dejong the at bats IMO!
Good enough to win the central yes! That is it! We are 1 and 9 in our last 10 playoff games! This starting 5 will keep that number getting worse! We don’t have a 1 or 2 starter of a quality playoff team! Case closed!
Bccran here are some aces that are pitching well
McClanahan
Glasnow
Beiber
McKenzie
Gausman
Castillo
Wheeler
Nola
DeGrom
Dervish
Cole
Urias
WrightThat is quite a few and by the way any of these is better than anyone we have! We can not and will not go far into a playoff run without a solid 1 or 2 of which we have neither at this moment!
He is the pitching COACH, of course it is his job to fix things at the major league level! Hicks was rushed through the minors and Maddux has had years to help him fix his mechanics and help him repeat his delivery more consistently! He hasn’t! Coaches always get players at different stages of development! I’ve never heard one say it’s not my job to fix their mechanics, somebody in the minors should have done that!
If this is true about Wainwright and his stride, combined with the lack of help given to a Cabrera and Hicks with their flawed mechanics perhaps Maddux should be told to look for work elsewhere!
It is a hard question to answer but what concerns me is we lot of pitchers
Genesis Cabrera, Jordan Hicks, Johan Oviedo, who are just throwers and never seem to improve! I would say that has to fall on the pitching coach! There are others but those three stand out! Jordan Hicks looks just like he did in HS! Where is the coaching? I would assume it is Maddux’s job to turn them from throwers into pitchers!Brian Walton, if you are right and deep in my heart I know you are we are stuck with a division winner who has no real hope in the playoffs! As I get older I am feeling less and less like this is enough!
Someone said it above! This team is being built to win the weakest division in baseball! Nothing more! Until we, the fans demand more we are stuck with division winners that have no shot in the playoffs proven by our 1 and 9 record in the last 10! We need a way better team to contend for titles! When you look at the last 8 teams standing they almost all have advantages in starting pitching, bullpen and lineup and for us to get there is gonna take either more money being spent or some of our potential players to actually produce!
Dansby Swanson is the one free agent I would like to get! He is a solid Cardinal type player the fans here would love! O’Neill is gonna be Randal Grichuk! Good enough to stay on a roster and tease with his potential but never really break out! 2021 will be the best year he ever has in the pros! Way too many holes in his swing and everyone knows where the weaknesses are now! Gorman has potential but his strike out rate is alarming to say the least! We have tons of guys with potential but very few with real production which is out big problem! Gorman, O’Neill, Carlson, Yepez, Lars, need to either put up are shut up! We will spend years waiting for O’Neill to have another great season just like we have with Dejong!
I guess what I’m trying to say is if we went out and signed Verlander and traded for Beiber there is not a single person on here that wouldn’t think IF they stay healthy and IF they make the playoffs we have a lot better chances of winning a playoff series! Guys we have lost 9 of our last 10 playoff games! We have to get way better!!
Bccran the reason we hit 130 in 2019 was because they threw Scherzer then Starusburg and then Corbin 3 pitchers that were better than anyone we had and we had no shot! Our pitchers pitched great but not good enough! Those first 2 starters at least took that team to a World Series championship and again we have no one of that quality on our staff! If we go into next season with the starting 5 you list, yes we can win a weak division, yes we can make the playoffs but again we will run into a team with way better starters than we have and again we will be soundly beaten! You can mark it down here and we can come back to it after next year!
I agree they won’t spend on a super star arm and that is why we will be having thss conversation next year! But, I’ll still watch every game and root my heart out for them, unless they bring back Paul Dejong! I don’t think I can stomach another year of that! Lol!
