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Just to stay even with last year, they have to spend $14M, so my guess is that they are planning to go after Contreras, or Vazquez/Murphy + a $6-8M reliever.
I would take Vazquez on a two year pact and use the prospects to trade for an ace.
stlcard25
I would take Vazquez on a two year pact and use the prospects to trade for an ace.
Yeah I like Vazquez if it involves getting better elsewhere. I don’t like it if it’s the only, Matz-like, move of the winter. Vazquez will be 32 though, while Contreras would be 30.
His 3-yr averages are .268/.317/.388/.704 with 11 HRs ~ OPS+ of 91. (90 is average for catcher)
Contreras is .241/.346/.444/.790 with 21 HRs ~ OPS+ of 116.
Murphy is .235/.326/.422/.748 with 18 HRs ~ OPS+ of 113, but also costs a top player like Gorman.
Can we not afford to pay Judge 10/400M? Or is it a situation where we just don’t think Judge would want to play in St. Louis? Sort of like Stanton a few years ago.
I can’t envision the Cardinals being interested in that. $40M a year for a player heading into his 30’s and with an injury history? I don’t think so.
Judge will probably end up with the Yankees, Dodgers, or Giants. Or maybe the Padres. They seem to go after every player.
If StL doesn’t spend at least 80% of their funds available this winter, on pitching, their analytical room needs to be fired and start over.
I really hope Mo doesn’t plan on relying on a group of pitchers that have proven unreliable in the past, due to health or performance.
I like Jansen of Toronto better than Vazquez. He is only projected to make $4M in 2023.
I like Jansen better too…but Vazquez costs only money and we could then use our prospects to trade for a front line starter.
Folks need to temper their expectations. Mo is already walking back from his going outside talk.
Now, he’s saying the outfielders will have to perform better at the plate.
They will sign a second tier catcher until the great Herrera arrives.
They will MAYBE sign an outfield bat for one year until the great Walker arrives.
DeJong will be the starting shortstop on opening day in 2023Mo:”
“We tried but we just couldn’t find the right fit.”
“We can’t block all of our hall of fame prospects.”
“We don’t want to enter into any long term deals and tie up all of our money.”
“We make the playoffs every year…we just can’t seem to get hot during the playoffs.”
And whatever else Mo can dream up as spin.Nate, surely you did not “dream this up as spin”… So please share your source attributing these comments to Mo. Thanks.
Mo is already walking back from his going outside talk.
Now, he’s saying the outfielders will have to perform better at the plate.
They will sign a second tier catcher until the great Herrera arrives.
They will MAYBE sign an outfield bat for one year until the great Walker arrives.
DeJong will be the starting shortstop on opening day in 2023JJ, totally agree. At least 80% for pitching! Our lineup is good enough! Some have posted on here of our starter depth and it is true we have depth! The problem is they are 3,4 or 5 types on a great staff! We desperately need a 1 and 2 but at least a clear 1. People like Mo keep hoping Flaherty is gonna wake up and be great again but most feel that is wishful thinking! Whether we buy or trade we MUST acquire a clear number 1 starter! JJ, if I could I would make you GM but alas I am just a poor forum responder!
Our lineup is good enough? Really?
There are so many question marks with the lineup it’s almost scary. Question marks regarding Carlson, Nootbaar, Yepez, Burleson, Walker, DeJong, Gorman, O’Neill, Knizner. If Goldschmidt or Arenado ever get hurt or have a bad year we are in major trouble.
And I keep telling you posters the same thing – OVER AND OVER AGAIN! Mo and mgmt are going to keep their fingers crossed that Flaherty finally becomes the ace they have been hoping for. We are NOT going to sign or trade for a #1/Ace pitcher.
r/Esteemed Rat
Can we not afford to pay Judge 10/400M?
Not sure I’d go 10/400, but they certainly go 8/340 and force themselves to be outbid.
A man can dream….
When predicting the team’s course, one should focus on players either about to become too expensive for a struggling market or an aging great signed to an under-water contract.
From Anderson of the Marlins to Hanigar of the Mariners all the way to Trout; there are countless trade routes. They are poised to add a huge player. I could see Trout as more likely than a Joc Pederson-type add.Here are the pitchers on the 40 man roster –
Mikolas
Montgomery
Flaherty
Matz
Wainwright
Hudson
Pallante
Liberatore
Thompson
Woodford
Helsley
Gallegos
Hicks
Cabrera
Romero
Stratton
Naughton
Pacheco
Naile
Walsh
Whitley
ReyesAdd Parsons and Thomas to that list.
The bullpen is pretty well set. Hoping they re-sign Quintana. That would complete a strong staff. Additions could always be made at the deadline as needed.
A nightmare lineup for opposing pitchers –
Winn CF
Donovan 2B
Goldschmidt 1B
Arenado 3B
Walker RF
Gorman LF
Murphy C
Yepez/Burleson DH
Edman SSThat would be a nightmare for Cardinal pitchers to…yikes that OF….ugh no experience there at all and want to put top SS prospect in CF is just dumb
Jansen worries me with his extreme career year and lack of PT – only 280 PAs or so. Feel the Blue Jays would be selling high – Jansen is worth O’Neill roughly on BTV website and I don’t think he is worth that, but maybe we could sell high on Nootbaar.
Onyxgem
That would be a nightmare for Cardinal pitchers to…yikes that OF….ugh no experience there at all and want to put top SS prospect in CF is just dumb
I agree. Plus Gorman would likely be the DH with Burleson/Yepez in LF or whatever. Still very little experience.
Are they trading Carlson, Nootbaar, and O’Neill away in that scenario? I promise the A’s won’t want either of Carlson (about to hit arbitration) or O’Neill (already there) for Murphy. Murphy would theoretically be a trade possibility in the first place due to getting close to free agency.
Winn and Gorman would lose a lot of value moving to the outfield or DH. Why not just trade for the outfield version of Winn in that scenario. Someone like Zac Veen or Andy Pages out of the AFL, but I’d rather keep Winn for now.
pitching hasnt failed us the last 2 yrs, it has been hitting
Cardinals are very good and consistent at drafting, developing, and finding diamonds in the rough in regards to pitching.
They aren’t as consistent about producing top level hitters, good yes…great? rarely
since Pujols….maybe Taveras…maybe Walker
Gorman was supposed to be slam dunk
Carlson
DeJong
Carp
Craig
Rasmsus
DrewI like our developed hitters, i think they fit really well in with the proven bats you can acquire, they fill out a team with solid to good hitters internally..save that money and keep the churn on
but we need help right now…
and we find pitchers ever year im not worried about pitching at all
I’d love an indomitable Ace..but that is no guarantee…Max and DeGrom got washed out of the playoffs and both spent significant time on the IL
Hitting is hard…put your money into guys who have proved they can do it…like Goldy…like Arenado…like Pujols even (who carried the offense the last month)
and before them…Edmonds, Rolen, Berkman, Beltran…proven hitters made the difference on the big teams that made big strides
I love the Memphis mafia it’d be great to produce everything internally…but sometimes you have to look at your history and honestly look at what we are good at…then use outside places to fill in…and that is hitting
Mikolas, Jack, Waino, Matz, Montgomery….that’s not bad…maybe see if you can bring back Quint reasonably…
Trout trade or Contreras signing…that helps the offense…and defense..
i know Contreras gets some crap for calling games and his framing…but auto balls and strikes are coming and getting better at calling a game can happen and be mitigated by the coaching staff
also..the bases are getting bigger…means more running…means a stronger arm is VERY valuable…and his is the best
Could we afford?
Contreras
Haniger
Quintana
Juan MateoBecause that checks every box to me…SP, 3position OF with healthy bat, hitting catcher that can throw, and versatile SS/2b/CF who can steal a bag at any time
or trade for Trout for the ultimate vet hitter signing and see how much you have left over to spend
Hi Brian!!
Mo said on his skype broadcast that they would look out side for possibilities
He was on 101 ESPN with some of those guys, I forget who and said that Carlson, O’Neil and Nootbar will have to perform better.
He was very clear about it.Now, I said they’d sign the second tier catcher, maybe an outfield bad and DeJong would be the starting SS ion 2023, not MO.
Nootbaar got a lot of mileage out of .228, but it was still .228. That only plays so long when you are an everyday corner outfielder.
Now bling, you know batting average doesn’t mean anything anymore. What really counts is his fWOT and his BADIP and his -UZS and his OSB+ and his rOBG. C’mon man, get with the program. This is the year 2022.
r/Esteemed Rat
Something to think about when it comes to 2023…is 2024. The Cards really don’t have much committed for that year, as they’ve got a ton of Arb3 guys and expiring contracts next year. Theoretically, this is the team for 2024:
C Knizner Arb2/Herrera
1B Goldy
2B Edman Arb2/Donovan
SS Winn
3B Arenado/Gorman
RF Nootbaar/Walker
CF Carlson Arb1
LF O’Neill Arb3/Burleson
DH YepezSP Matz
SP Hudson Arb3
SP Liberatore/Pallante/McGreevy/GraceffoRelievers under contract: Gallegos
Arb relievers: Helsley, Cabrera, Romero, Woodford, Naughton
Other relievers: Walsh, ThompsonIt’s not unreasonable to think that we could have a payroll of around $100M on the books going to 2024. You can see where we will need to spend. There’s some hope that the farm can provide one starter by then. The Cards will need 2-3 more starters for sure, so unless you see them signing or trading for that many next off-season, it would make sense to get a start on that now. Maybe Monty, Flaherty or Mikolas become a piece you keep, but really only Monty would warrant an extension talk this off-season.
The question is, is Winn ready for the big time? I would prefer Winn and Walker play at Memphis in 2023, and if the plan is for Winn to be an outfielder have him play center field there to get comfortable with the position.
I would think between the likes of Carlson, O’Neill, Yepez, Nootbaar and perhaps Deluzio we could come up with three guys who have good 2023 seasons. Then go with Goldy, Gorman, Edman and Arenado around the horn.
As has been said, the starting pitching needs an upgrade. Ideally we get in a time machine and undo the Ozuna trade, but that can only happen in the movies. Flaherty’s return to form might be an answer, but it is unknown.
I agree, BikeMike. Wouldn’t expect to see Walker or Winn in St. Louis until mid to late 2023. One of the big keys to this offense is going to be who hits behind Goldy and Nado. The candidates are O’Neill, Gorman, Carlson, Yepez, Burleson, and Gomez. Maybe a platoon, but someone (or several) need to rise to the occasion.
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