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I was once told by a very smart person that it is much better to ask a question than to state an opinion, so I am asking for yours. What do you think are his strengths and weaknesses. Is he responsible in any way for bullpen decisions? Should the Cardinals continue with him?
I think he’s pretty good.
He can only work with what he is given.
Shocked that between him, Marmol, and Molina none of them pulled the plug on Helsley before it was out of hand Friday night…
I think Maddux is a solid pitching coach for a veteran group of arms. The problem with that is he doesn’t seem to really help develop any of the young guys trying to make that jump from Triple A to the majors. I think part of that is his knowledge on pitching is based on a much older practice than the modern game dictates. I am not saying going full analytics is always a great method, but I think the Cardinals lack of young, healthy arms falls largely on him. I also wonder what will happen to the staff with Molina retired. I think he helped develop a lot of those game plans that worked very well for veteran guys like Montgomery, who openly discussed the Cardinals wanting him to focus on his fastball more, which was attributed to Molina. Taking him out of the equation and having a front office that seems focused on getting young arms cycling through the roster every year, I worry the pitching could fall apart.
“Shocked that between him, Marmol, and Molina none of them pulled the plug on Helsley before it was out of hand Friday night…”
this. how Marmol left Helsley out there for so long is beyond me. i haven’t been a fan of Marmol’s managing, and i think this was a terrible failure
When Gallegos got out Segura in the 8th, and had got 4 outs, and they had Stott, Vierling, Schwarber coming up I was saying “Thompson, Thompson…..THOMPSON”. Gallegos walked Stott on 4 and theh went to Helsley in the 8th to get out of it and then the melt down in the 9th. I haven’t hated Marmol, but he definitely waited too long to get someone going in the 9th and I definitely didn’t agree with contact pitching Pallante there. I know the options were limited, but Flaherty made more sense to me. But I wanted Thompson for Stott, Vierling, Schwarber. If he got Stott and Vierling I still would have started thr 9th with him again Schwarber before going to Helsley to get the last 2. Who knows, that’s not what was done. But I think Maddux does fine. Marmol lineup construction, especially for the playoff games, and some of the pen decisions I don’t understand. But I’m sure it’s whatever Mo and the computers say to do.
But I’m sure it’s whatever Mo and the computers say to do.
Yes. Whoever has the highest K/9 is the best guy always, any time, anywhere, any situation. You won’t get fired for living the faith.
I have no information on which to judge Maddux. All I ever see him do is stand on the dugout steps, count pitches and occasionally walk out to the mound to claw the shoulder of a pitcher. Whatever else he does or doesn’t do, effectively or ineffectively, or if anybody listens to him or cares what he thinks, is unknowable by the average fan.
I agree CIF. It is hard for us fans to properly evaluate pitching and hitting coaches because we really don’t see what they do behind the scenes. All we see are ERA’s and batting averages. I would imagine they can offer some mechanical advice to players but a lot of their time is probably spent as a therapist.
The question is what would you expect of a pitching coach if you were a GM. Doubt that they have much effect on the vets.
But I would expect the younger pitchers to improve with a good pitching coach through improvement of mechanics, teaching new pitches and new strategies as other teams adjust to their approach.
Also conditioning.
I think the expectation for most pitching coaches these days is to take the data provided by the analytics department and synthesis down into an effect game plan/pitching strategy for the entire staff. That is where I wonder how well Maddux does. Hudson is the guy that keeps sticking out in my mind. He never improved this year. His control was all over the place and he never seemed to have much of a plan out there. Maybe that falls on him for not buying in, but it’s hard to observe that while also seeing the ongoing struggles of other young pitchers trying to get established (Thompson, Liberatore, Oviedo). Even looking back a couple season, Gant and Ponce de Leon always seemed to be running into the same mistakes. Again, I understand that can fall on the pitchers and the front office for not finding more talent, but 2022 was the second straight season Mo had to go acquire two veteran pitchers at the deadline to have any hope of cobbling together a competitive staff. That has to be fixed. Either the front office needs to improve their roster building or they need a pitching coach that can do better with what is given.
The Wainwright thread talks about why the pitching coach and staff didn’t pick up on his stride that was “a foot shorter”, so plugged in the “wave your hands and call it dead arm” excuse. The coach’s staff has to see that one on video.
It is a hard question to answer but what concerns me is we lot of pitchers
Genesis Cabrera, Jordan Hicks, Johan Oviedo, who are just throwers and never seem to improve! I would say that has to fall on the pitching coach! There are others but those three stand out! Jordan Hicks looks just like he did in HS! Where is the coaching? I would assume it is Maddux’s job to turn them from throwers into pitchers!
I would assume it is Maddux’s job to turn them from throwers into pitchers!
I think that is supposed to happen in the minors and is the job of the player development staff and MiLB coaches. If Maddux gets guys who can fire heat past minor league hitters but don’t know much else there is little he can do at the major league level. What he can do is pick up on a pitcher who is hurt or whose mechanics are fouled up, but that is a different issue.
He is the pitching COACH, of course it is his job to fix things at the major league level! Hicks was rushed through the minors and Maddux has had years to help him fix his mechanics and help him repeat his delivery more consistently! He hasn’t! Coaches always get players at different stages of development! I’ve never heard one say it’s not my job to fix their mechanics, somebody in the minors should have done that!
I agree with much that has been said.
Hard to know what role the pitching coach plays in conditioning, player acquisition, use of bullpen and other issues. We forget as fans at times that no one is operating in a vacuum. I would say at least a pitching coach is responsible for mechanics and helping maximizing the pitchers skills through the development of pitches that can make the player most successful.I am most concerned about injuries. While overall the Cardinals had a good injury year that doesn’t tell the whole story.
Virtually all of the best Cardinal pitchers have missed significant playing time since Maddux came in 2018. Add Matz to that this year and I suspect Cabrera is struggling with injury the way he melted down late in the season.
I give Maddux A+ for the emergence of Helsley this year. The Cardinals were 50-4 in the games he appeared in this year and he only gave up more than one run one time. Gallegos gave up multiple runs 6 times and multiple earned runs 5 times and the Cardinals were 44-13 in the games he appeared in. Makes you wonder about the seemingly effort by the Cardinals to keep him closing. Why only 54 games for an all-star closer and why the multiple inning use. 17 times and often a three day gap before the next outing.
Of greater concern is the poor recovery of quality pitchers who have been injured. Flaherty, Hudson, Reyes and Hicks all appeared to have top of rotation potential or closed ability. Add them to Wainwright and Milolas and have a deep staff if healthy. But the Cardinals had only 36 wins and no saves from that group of 6 in 2022. Hudson is clearly overthrowing at times as was Gallegos while trying to salvage his closer spot. Also Whitley who use to be a low mid to high 90’s pitcher with a good change and good command low in the zone. Now often high and outside a lot and less velocity.
Finally I don’t know what Maddux has to say about the use of Mo’s Misfits, my name for pitchers he aquires that weren’t very good before we got them and just as bad or worse afterward. I am referring to Verhagen 21.2 innings and 106 ERA+, Wittgren 29 innings and 66, Naughton 32 innings and 81 ERA+ and McFarland (although good in 2021) 32.2 innings and 58 ERA+. Contrast that with Pallante 121 ERA+, Woodford 48.1 innings and 172 ERA+, Thompson 34.2 innings and 186 ERA+, Oviedo 25.1 innings and 108 ERA+.
Bottom line, my own data suggests that he has contributed with the development of some of the young pitchers, but the injuries and poor recovery bothers me. I think I would look to change and if interested Wainwright could be a good choice. I wonder what role Yadi and Waino will play for the Cardinals after retirement.
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