2023 Pitching staff

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  • #208994
    CardsFan552
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    I have seen bits and pcs of pitching in many of the topics, but thought it would be nice to have one for pitching only.
    I’ll start just by listing what I know we have now:
    SP- Mikolas, Monty, Waino, Flaherty, Matz
    RP- Gio, Hels, Andre, Hicks, Woody, Zach, Dakota, Stratton
    AAA+ – Libby, Cabrera, Packy, Kodi, Romero…
    If I missed anyone please insert.
    I think SP is pretty much set, barring any trades or injuries.
    The RP gets a bit foggy, but if your pitching the guys that looked the best last
    season, what is listed it pretty close.

    #208996
    bccran
    Participant

    Bullpen is the interesting shake out –

    RH (6 make it?) –
    Helsley
    Gallegos
    Hicks
    Pallante
    Hudson
    Woodford
    Naile
    Stratton
    VerHagen
    Walsh
    Pacheco
    Loutos
    Rodriguez

    LH (2 make it?)
    Liberatore
    Thompson
    Romero
    Cabrera
    Naughton
    Thomas

    #208997
    ZTR
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    I am going to assume 2-3 of the starters get injured – 1 before the season has begun.

    I still think the Cardinals need to add a #1 or #2 SP to the stable and not wait until the situation is dire.

    #208999
    bccran
    Participant

    If you add a pitcher, ZTR, who goes to the bullpen?

    #209001
    Lee
    Participant

    ZTR, you are probably right with the injurys!
    Tough to see Jack coming back, shoulder problems are very hard to overcome.. although I hope he does.

    #209003
    bccran
    Participant

    You can’t just pile bodies on top of bodies to create depth in case of injuries. Again, if you bring in another starter, who goes to the bullpen?

    #209006
    Lee
    Participant

    correct bccran, its the balancing act all teams have to face. Cards problem is they have 1 starter who has aged well, but still has aged and never know when a injury will hit: and then have 2 starters who missed major time last season in Matz and Jack… and of the 5 starters now being assumed for 2023, none of them will concede to a Reliever role, it would have to be some sort of trade.

    #209008
    gscottar
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    Paid - Annual

    I get the feeling Mo is going to make another pitching addition this winter. Not only does our 2023 staff need a boost our 2024 staff looks rather barren at the moment. He knows that.

    #209009
    bccran
    Participant

    2024 –

    Matz is in place
    Mikolas can be extended
    Montgomery can be extended
    Liberatore will probably be ready
    Graceffo will probably be ready

    Trades are possible with all the trading chips we have.

    #209010
    forsch31
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    I think without acquiring an ace, this team has almost no chance to win the WS in 2023. I am also concerned that they won’t have enough starting pitching to win the WS in 2024, either.

    2023:
    Wainwright – Was his performance at the end of 2022 really a product of an injury or age?
    Flaherty – an ace if he is healthy but will he be healthy?
    Montgomery – pitched well for the first month but ended the year poorly.
    Mikolas – our most consistent pitcher over the entire 2022 season but is 34 and not an ace.
    Matz – injury concerns
    Hudson – poor 2022. Was he still recovering from TJ surgery.
    Liberatore, Woodford, Pallante and Thompson are the leading candidates to fill in, if needed.
    Hicks, Graceffo and McGreevy seem to be further down the list of possible starters.

    This list does not seem WS Championship worthy.

    2024:
    Wainwright – retired
    Flaherty – free agent looking for the highest salary
    Montgomery – free agent with Scott Boras as an agent
    Mikolas – free agent
    Matz – signed through 2025
    Hudson
    Liberatore
    Woodford
    Pallante
    Graceffo ???

    Still not a great starting staff.

    The team, as it is currently situated, will have money available for next year’s free agent pitching class. Ohtani, Urias, Scherzer, Nola and Giolito among others. Urias might be a target since the Dodgers might prioritize Ohtani.

    #209012
    forsch31
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    bc, a couple of thoughts:

    1. If trades could happen to acquire pitching for 2024, trades could happen to get rid of displaced starters in 2023. Maybe we could use a starter like Montgomery or Matz along with an O’Neill to upgrade the OF or an ace.

    2. As far as Montgomery being extended, he is represented by Scott Boras. He will try free agency and sign the highest offer, most likely.

    #209014
    LACardFan
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    Gioloto is a FA next year, and he and Flaherty are friends. Maybe the Cardinals try to unite them the way they united Liberatore & Gorman.

    #209017
    bccran
    Participant

    I really don’t think the Cards are going to be in the FA market for a big time acquisition. They don’t want to tie up huge dollars on an arm that go sour. Look at how they got Carpenter. Look at how they got Wainwright. Look at how they got Lester, Happ, Quintana, Montgomery, etc. They’ll probably see how well their internal options are progressing before going into the trade market.

    #209020
    stlcard25
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    The team, as it is currently situated, will have money available for next year’s free agent pitching class. Ohtani, Urias, Scherzer, Nola and Giolito among others. Urias might be a target since the Dodgers might prioritize Ohtani.

    Nola is the guy I wanted. I was hoping the Phillies would be bad this year so they might put him on the market. He just looks like a Cardinals type of pitcher.

    #209022
    1toughdominican
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    gscottar mentioned the very real possibility of Johnny formulating a trade for a SP’er before the fellas get underway in ST. Keep in mind that Contreras was placed in a Redbird uniform by parting with paper currency, so Johnny still has a bankroll of players in his hip pocket that allows him to sit down at the table, so to speak, and see if he can put together a nice hand. There’s been countless trades that have occured in the month of February that involved both pitchers and position players and quite a few of them were very notable. Santana to the Mets, Clemens to the Yankees, Griffey Jr. to the Reds, Rodriguez to the Yankees and Sosa to the O’s. And oh, here’s a couple…One you may remember and the other you probably want to forget…Ozzie Smith to the Cardinals, and Steve Carlton to the Phillies, both occured in the month of February. I’d like to also include John Tudor to the Cardinals in the list, but he doesn’t count as he came to StL. in December of ’84 in a trade in which the Redbirds sent George Hendrick to Pittsburgh for the LH SP’er.

    #209023
    1toughdominican
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    bccran…Yeah, that’s all you need to see to know how the Redbirds do business. Whether or not I like it, I have to acknowledge that it’s a pretty sound approach.

    #209024
    bccran
    Participant

    The moves they make for 2024 will probably depend on how the below do over the 2023 season. The Cardinals work on both a short term and long term plan.

    Matz
    Hudson
    Pallante
    Thompson
    Liberatore
    Thomas
    Parsons
    Walsh
    Graceffo
    McGreevey
    Hence
    Hjerpe
    Mautz
    Paniagua
    Hansen
    Willis
    Love

    #209028
    gscottar
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    Paid - Annual

    I think the Cardinals will want a little more certainty in 2024 than what we appear to have now. It is hard to say if any of the names above will be ready for significant starter innings in St. Louis by then. I could see a Mikolas extension happening. A Montgomery extension will be more difficult since he is a Boras client. I think another acquisition will be made either by trade or free agency.

    #209036
    jj-cf-stl
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    Paid - Annual

    Montgomery extension:

    Lets say Monty plays his last arb season (2023) for roughly 10mil. But, Mo would like to sign him now, to an extension covering some of his FA seasons, lessening the blow of so many starters becoming free agents next winter.

    How many years, and total dollars would you like to see Mo offer?

    #209038
    gscottar
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    Paid - Annual

    I would do 4 years/$76M but I am sure Boras would reject that. He likes for his clients to go to free agency unless an overpay is involved.

    #209040
    Oliver
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    Jameson Taillon a year older but similar pitcher got 4/63. So I think that would be a fair offer but no way Boras lets him take that. I think 5/100 may do it.

    #209048
    jj-cf-stl
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    I was going with 3/60 or 4/80mil, so I’m with you on the 20mil AAV Oliver.

    #209063
    mudville
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    Andre Palante has always been a mystery man to me. He sort of came out of nowhere to make the 2022 roster. Is it his poise, his pitches or what? He was a fourth round draft choice in 2019, missed 2020 along with just about everybody else. Then spends one year in he minors, and makes the opening day roster for 2022 and stays with the team all year. I’ve been wondering if they just put him in the pen, firstly, because they thought he could handle it, and secondly, they were priming him for a starters role. I guess we’ll find out in spring training. Right now I’m looking at him as a potential sleeper starter. And I thinking that Woodford may follow the same path in 2023. And I’m anxious to see how Connor Thomas’s new pitch is going to change things for him going forward. IMO, this organization is stacked with pitching except for that top of rotation guy.

    #209066
    1toughdominican
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    I think you drove it home with the term “poise,” mudville, as for Pallante’s primary asset. He displayed plenty of it during the ’22 regular season, but he really impressed me in Game 1 of the WC series when he was handed the baseball in the midst of an incredibly high stakes situation after a disaster had been allowed to take place in the visitor half of the 9th. He induced precisely what he was after and that game would in all probability gone in the Cardinal’s favor if the IF hadn’t been positioned in on the grass. Pallante really showed me some genuine poise in that Redbird loss.

    #209069
    Steve60
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    Forsch31 has it right IMO! Yes we have a long list of pretty good pitchers but without a solid 1 or 2 we have little chance to progress very far come playoff time! The only way we progress with this group is if someone just comes out of nowhere (Thompson and Woodford) and suddenly become 1 and 2 and then who knows! I doubt they would even get the chance without serious injury though! Contreras signing makes us division champ, to get beyond that would take a miracle with current staff!

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