Wainwright’s late season problems + 2023 return

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  • #204380
    Brian Walton
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    So, it wasn’t a dead arm, after all. He injured his knee and that caused a shortened delivery. Wainwright is sounding like a man who wants to come back next year.

    Interesting that he took to social media to tell the story himself.

    https://twitter.com/UncleCharlie50/status/1580215316344627200

    #204387
    Oliver
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    He is right we deserved better from him. I hope he retires but I doubt he will.

    #204388
    stlcard25
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    I enjoy Waino’s candor and sentimentally, would like to see him go out with a good season, get 200 wins, etc. But it’s pretty possible that the team is better next year if he retires.

    Fwiw, I’m also firmly in the “don’t resign Quintana” camp. We’ve been burned by the resurgent pitcher resigning before. He may be good again next year, but the odds aren’t in his favor.

    I’d be happy to see some new blood at the front of the rotation.

    #204389
    1toughdominican
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    stlcard25…I’m with you on Quintana. The Cardinals were fortunate and got plenty out of him in the second half. Much more than I would have expected. In Quintana’s case, I’ll cite the number one fundamental rule of gambling…Walk away winner. He’s too risky. I’m happy for Quintana and what he contributed to the Redbirds and he’ll undoubtedly get his nice payoff in the offseason, but let someone else sign the check.

    #204391
    gscottar
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    I am glad Waino clarified what was going on. That was not the story coming from certain members of the media or the team. Perhaps it is because he/they really didn’t know what was going on until recently, which seems to be the case. Regardless, I have always assumed he wanted to come back next year and I still feel that way.

    As for Quintana, if the Cardinals were serious about going after a number one then I would say we don’t need Q. But if they are going to do their usual bargain bin shopping then I would most definitely be interested in bringing him back, at the right price of course. The last two years in a row we have began the season on a hope and a prayer with our rotation, only to be burned, with Mo having to correct it at the trade deadline. We don’t need to wait four months into the season to have a decent rotation.

    #204396
    1toughdominican
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    gscottar…Well, that makes perfect sense. The Cardinal manager couldn’t discern what was going on with Helsley and it was right in front of his eyes.

    #204398
    gscottar
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    1td…It was my impression that the team and the media were reporting the dead arm story because that is what they were getting from Waino. Same with Helsley. It was reported before Game 1 that he was ok and good to go. I am assuming that came from him.

    #204400
    1toughdominican
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    gscottar…You may remember during the ’06 post-season that there was a question concerning Scott Rolen’s gimpy right shoulder. Rolen insisted it was fine, but Tony LaRussa wasn’t convinced and refused to place him in the line-up for what I recall to be the clinching game 4 of that years post-season vs. SD. There was some animosity reported in the media between the player and manager concerning that decision. What I’m driving at, is that LaRussa went with what he was seeing insofar as Rolen’s performance in the batter’s box and not what the doctors or Rolen had told him. LaRussa managed the situation, not heresay. In my view, it’s one of the many reasons he’s a HOF manager.

    #204403
    Euro Dandy
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    You shouldn’t need this new take from Adam to know the Cards either had no clue as to why his performance declined (at best) or were being deceitful about it (at less than best). Ironically, Marmol’s quote a couple weeks ago telling people they don’t understand the nuances of dead arm and how to overcome it told everyone he didn’t have the slightest clue (at best) or he was just trying to fool himself and others.

    Also, shortening your stride by a foot is enormous. How do Marmol and Maddux not notice that dramatic change? Especially considering the big clue of a batted ball off the knee immediately before the change in stride. C’mon, a stride shortened by a foot on a guy you’ve been watching for years isn’t some trivial minutia that should slip by a pitching coach and manager doing their jobs.

    At face value, I wouldn’t mind having Adam back with the right contract for his expected level of performance. More importantly though, these physical issues are likely to only increase next season, which is now a much larger concern. That’s because I don’t trust Marmol and Maddux to make the honest and correct assessment with an iconic veteran like Adam.

    #204404
    blingboy
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    Waino described all sorts of things about his delivery that were abnormal. I have to question why Maddux and others did not pick up on it immediately, especially with video.

    #204411
    so_cal_cards_fan
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    I came on here to write what Euro and BB just wrote (ok not as well but still). How could they not know? Why is the press not seeing this as a smoking gun for firing the whole pitching department? All the expensive technology and they can’t see a foot shorter stride on an injured player?

    #204421
    jj-cf-stl
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    If his arm is toast, and he wants a shot at 200 wins, he needs the dead arm scenario to go away.

    #204424
    1982 willie
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    I don’t know, seems kind of like a new excuse. When did they figure it out, his last start was bad. I’ve been on the side that waino should retire this year, should have made it a trio going out. Funny how just a year or two ago he was talking about hanging his cleats up and spending time with family. But now it’s Ive figured it out and I’m ready for next year.

    #204433
    jj-cf-stl
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    Adam was throwing clunkers way before September. It’s possible both scenarios are true. The arm is dead and his mechanics are out of whack.

    If they offer him another year, surely it’s a low base and incentive laden.

    #204447
    KylMss
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    He had some bad starts before September, but he was never consistently bad the way he was in September. He had one started in August and one in July where he allowed more than 2 runs. I think there is reason to believe Wainwright isn’t embellishing.

    #204451
    Steve60
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    If this is true about Wainwright and his stride, combined with the lack of help given to a Cabrera and Hicks with their flawed mechanics perhaps Maddux should be told to look for work elsewhere!

    #204463
    PadsFS
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    jj-cf-stl

    If his arm is toast, and he wants a shot at 200 wins, he needs the dead arm scenario to go away.

    I wouldn’t mind him getting the Roger Clemens treatment, pitching in home stands to start the year next season. By June, they can kick it up a notch or he can retire. Clemens made over 15 starts those last two years.

    After Wainwrights 5-yr deal ended in 2018 (his 4th straight sup-par season), he signed that $2M deal for 2019 for his age-37 season with easy bonuses that ultimately bumped him up to $10M. Signed a similar $5M deal in 2020 and another #8M deal in 2021 with bonuses.

    I’d like to see them go back to something like that with a $3-5M base with bonuses kicking in like in 2019:

    Games started: $500,000 for 5 GS. $1M each for 10, 15 GS. $1.5M for 20 GS. $2M each for 25, 30 GS.

    #204470
    gscottar
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    If his arm is toast, and he wants a shot at 200 wins, he needs the dead arm scenario to go away.

    You are probably right JJ. If so, I don’t know which is worse. Waino trying to change the narrative or Waino being transparent about the real issue and nobody picking up on it for over a month?

    #204472
    Nigel T
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    It’s shocking how many posters don’t realize how valuable a top starter on a one year deal is. Point out his flawed starts at the end and you are pointing at innings 175 through 191. How many other starters even got to 175?
    Add in his place in Cardinal history and I am appalled by anyone who questions the viability of bringing him back.

    #204476
    Nathan Leopold Jr.
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    Nigel:

    I’m sorry you are appalled. His place in Cardinal’s history means zero to me. He’s getting old and has most likely lost it. Part ways and move on to someone else.

    #204477
    stlcard25
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    The Cards could and probably will bring him back on a 1 year deal, and it will probably be a bargain. Yet…if the team has designs on winning a title, is it best to go into October with some combo of Flaherty, Mikolas, Waino, Matz and Montgomery as your rotation when you’re gonna face teams with rotations fronted by Wheeler-Nola, DeGrom-Scherzer, Urias-Kershaw-Buehler, Burnes-Woodruff, etc in the years ahead? It seems like we are set on the innings eaters, but in need of an ace to carry a rotation through October.

    #204480
    blingboy
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    It’s not like he’s blocking anybody.

    #204481
    blingboy
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    We will likely go into 2023 the same as this rear, a laundry list of injury come backs and hopefuls, and wind up having to find half a rotation mid season.

    #204483
    Oliver
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    He most likely be back. He is 41 and he is not a top starter anymore. He did eat innings but that’s about all he brings to the table. I rather he retires but I wouldn’t be appalled if they bring him back.

    #204488
    CariocaCardinal
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    Agree that Maddux bears some blame. Hard tô imagine though that after 20 years Wainwright didnt himself realize his mechanics were different

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