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“Ouch. That comparison stings”
I could be totally wrong, have been before. But when I watch his swing, paired with 35% K rate at low minors levels, and the big time moon shot power. I just think Branyan.
The only thing that makes sense to me is
1. Edman 2B
2. Carlson RF
3. Goldschmidt 1B
4. Arenado 3B
5. DeJong SS
6. O’Neill LF
7. Molina C
8. Bader CFAnd I’m not sold on O’Neill at all. Could be Edman in LF and Carpenter at 2B if Carpenter can hit, but his bat speed looked bad the last 2 years. If he gets back to gap to gap hitting and thinking doubles and not HR it could be beneficial, but at what cost to the defense. O’Neill was supposedly GG in LF last season and I think Edman will be an excellent 2B.
“Charlie Tilson is looking for a job. He can play all 3 OF positions and hit .288 in AAA two years ago.”
How are his legs though? I always liked him in the minors in STL. Hated to see him traded, even though I didn’t think he was an every day player, but glad when he got a shot, then only to blow out his leg in his very first MLB game. I don’t think his legs have ever been the same. But if they need another AAA OF depth piece I think he’s a good option.
“When Carlson and Gorman become stars I will gladly admit it. But until then I dont see anything to make me believe that is going to happen”
I saw scotter say it and I’ve thought it since I first saw Carlson in the minors. To me he’s JD Drew. I say that with lots of love too. When I had to create a login for something my sophomore year of high-school I created, my now often still used Cards667, for my 2 favorite players at the time in Rick Ankiel and JD Drew. I still say JD Drew is one of the most underrated careers I’ve seen. I think it’s partially because of the way people viewed him when not signing with Philadelphia and how highly touted he was and everyone expecting a star. I think injuries and it’s also because he was on a team that featured Edmonds and Pujols and later in his Cardinal career Rolen and Renteria had developed into quite the hitter. But, with that said Drew’s first full season was 1999 at age 23 and had a 91 OPS+. From age 24-27 (00-03) as a Cardinal he was 129 OPS+. His post Cardinal career is where he definitely became overlooked in my opinion. You can’t argue with a trade that brought in Wainwright and Atlanta only getting 1 year of Drew, all be it was the best of his career with 31 HR and 157 OPS+, from age 28-33 (04-09) Drew was a 134 OPS+ and had a respectable age 34 season too in 2010.
All that said, if Carlson is Drew I don’t think he’s a bust, no matter how touted he is right now, I just hope for health and consistency out of Carlson and I think he will develop into a fine hitter.As for Gorman, what I’ve seen of him he’s Russell Branyan.
“Likes idea of teams losing DH when starting pitcher is removed. “That way, it’s not the Battle of the Bulge. It’s a still a chess game.” Creative hybrid solution, half traditional, half creative. Union doesn’t love the opener concept.”
I guess I’ve not been paying attention to some of these proposals. I don’t like the DH, but I think i could be on board with this idea even as strange as it is. But if “resting” Goldy at DH for the day, then your starter only goes 4 innings, I’d suppose you’d lose Goldy and the pitcher spot be 4th? Or would you be allowed to “double switch” the DH into a position? Pitchers spot automatically becomes the 9th spot and everyone moves up? I’m not sure how that works out.
What’s the chances of a 6 man rotation?
-Mo said he liked not being strapped to 13 pitchers and could carry more.
-Mikolas didn’t pitch in 2020, innings limit
– Reyes innings limit
– Wainwright is 39, 40 this August.
– Martinez very few innings last year, always injury concerns with him.
– Could still throw Flaherty every 5th day, KK most of the time every 5th day, occasion giving them an extra day. Work Mikolas, Martinez, Reyes, Wainwright in around them giving extra rest to them, possibly even 2 of them going on the same day limited to 3-4 innings each.
Just a thought with what seems like a lot of innings limits and concerns.“I think cards667 grouped Webb and Williams together because both are out of options and possibly couldn’t make the roster in his proposal. all good”
Thats exactly what I did. Without injuries causing an opening to keep them and I’m still not sure that keeps Justin Williams (eliminate confusion) with Thomas and Dean being options too.
“That would be a lot of moves 667. Keep in mind that Steve Cohen is not our owner and JJ Preller is not our PBO/GM so good luck with that.
If we got Story I guess that means DeJong moves to 3B and once again Gorman is blocked. Why is everyone so obsessed with blocking our number one prospect?”
I know it would be a lot of moves, but I also don’t think any of it will happen. It’s just what I would like to see. Shake up things and get some offense and make a serious push at winning. Cubs and Reds unloading, Pirates down, don’t think Milwaukee is a serious contender. I just would like to shake it up and make a serious push at winning and not the whole we’ll be competitive and hope for the best.
Yes, Story would push DeJong to 3B, where he primarily played in the minors. I don’t think DeJong is a bad SS, but think his hands and arm could be a plus at 3B.
I also don’t think a trade for a SS or 3B is necessarily “blocking Gorman”. Prospects miss way more than hit. Gorman essentially missed competition in 2020 and hasn’t played above A+. Where the errors were high and the K% was something along the lines of 32% and 5% BB rate. The minors are going to be delayed again this year, Gorman probably is slated for AA anyway. Blocking a players path on a win now team isn’t an issue to me. I believe Gorman played SS in high school. I’ve read he has the athleticism to play 2B or corner OF. DeJong can also play 2B. Edman can shift back to super utility if playing everyday doesn’t work. As LaRussa used to say, “things have a way of working themselves out”. Story only has 1 year remainin, giving them a win now player who could possibly be signed long term, with Fowler, Carpenter both being free agents after 2021, and giving them another year to judge if Montero is a 3B, what they have in Gorman and if he sticks at 3B, is DeJong going to ever be the bat he shows flashes of or is he the 84 OPS+ of last season, which isn’t going to block Gorman anyway.If Mikolas isn’t ready I could see Webb still making the team. Poncedeleon or Reyes could start instead and keeping Webb on the team in the pen.
Don’t dislike him, but don’t see where he fits and has no options. I hold on as long as possible. But if Miller and Cabrera are healthy to start the season I think he gets DFA/Traded.
I’d like to see:
1) Martinez, O’Neill to Houston for Brett Conine and ???.
Houston has a need for pitching, only a 1 year commitment if he turns around then they have the option to bring him back, and their whole starting OF is free agents.
2) Woodford, Oviedo, Nunez to Colorado for Story
3) sign Molina (1 yr + option), Wainwright (1 yr), Joc Pederson (1 yr with incentives + option), utiliy guy
4) Webb and Williams kept for now, but probably DFA if they make it through spring healthy.Vs. RHP
1. Edman 2B (S)
2. Pederson LF (L)
3. Goldschmidt 1B (R)
4. Story SS (R)
5. Carlson CF (S)
6. DeJong 3B (R)
7. Molina C (R)
8. Fowler RF (S)Sosa, Carpenter, UTIL?, Bader, Knizner
Vs. LHP
1. Edman 2B (S)
2. Carlson LF (S)
3. Goldschmidt 1B (R)
4. Story SS (R)
5. DeJong 3B (R)
6. Molina C (R)
7. Fowler RF (S)
8. Bader CF (R)Flaherty, Kim(L), Mikolas, Gomber(L), Wainwright
Poncedeleon, Helsley, Cabrera(L), Gant, Reyes, Miller(L), Gallegos, Hicks
If 2 yr $10 million is what he gets then it can be in St. Louis honestly. I’m not a huge fan of his flashiness, as stated, but at $5 million a year for 2 years I can handle it. I’d rather see them add offense and use Edman at 2B where I think he will excell, but if offense can be added and Wong is in the picture at that price so be it. But not $12.5 million as he was scheduled to make. Not close.
Again why butt hurt? Why the love for a guy who is replaceable? I don’t see it. I’ve never seen it with Wong, at all. I had high hope’s being a 1st round pick and flashes early. But after a few seasons I was ready to sell him off and move on and utilize his money elsewhere. He’s not worth it. Do you love the baby blue glove and yellow cleats that much that you have to then make a comment about pretty boy Bader’s hair and hat falling off too? Yes, hes a pretty boy with the hair and needs to play ball too because he’s about to lose his spot too if he doesn’t.
“only get levied against a particular type of player.”
What, one who you can see it in his eyes? He’s in his own head all the time. You can see it.
And you can see the pretty boy in his cleats, glove, arm sleeve. I don’t like it. Wear the uniform and play ball. I’ve never liked over individualism.
His defense was above average, and at times, spectacular. But hes not a keystone player, he’s not a $12.5 million player. He’s replaceable.
Edman sure doesn’t seem to be a pretty boy, which I like. If that’s what you mean.No, I do. Wong can be replaced by many people making league minimum pretty well. He’s not worth the money at all. He’s a pretty boy, head case, with a below average bat, and good range. And on a team that can’t score runs. I’ve wanted him gone for awhile. Wish they would have got something for him while his value was up last off season, instead of thinking he broke out and was something more than he is and he’s not worth $12.5 million on any team, let alone a cash strapped team that needs offense he can’t provide. I guarentee he’s not getting $12.5 on the open market, and if someone gives that to him they have made a huge mistake.
Keeping Nogowski over Schrok surprised me.
Again, why does everyone love Wong so much? I don’t get it. He’s more than replaceable. And he was due to make $12.5 million. His production is worth about $2 million max.
I just here to say FINALLY!! I haven’t read any other posts, but I’ve never understood the love for him. He’s an exceptional defender, below avg bat, and a pretty boy head case. I’ve wanted him traded for years. Front office almost did the right thing here, the right move would have been to trade him last offseason when he had value and got something for him instead of another year of him in the line up and getting nothing in return. It’s nothing personal, just believe he’s WAY overrated and WAY to loved for what he is.
Same stats that said Jhonny Peralta was 5.8 UZR/ 6.0 UZR/150 with 1.4 range runs. I believe my eyes when it comes to defense. Story can play.
I’m really making it sound like I’m sold on Story and this idea. I’m not. More was just thinking out side the box for an answer with very limited options on where to go and what to do because of finances and availability and I have no clue what it would take, which also brings up availability because of what the Cardinals can and will give up.“Putting Story at SS and DeJong at 3B might be fine for one year but once again we would be blocking Gorman which I don’t agree with. How about let’s find an OF bat instead of an IF bat?”
That was honestly kinda my point at moving DeJong to 3B. His defense at SS doesn’t rate high because of his range, which is avg, its his hands which still plays at 3B and his bat hasn’t really come around, yes 30 HR but still only 99 OPS+ due to a .233/.318/.444 slash which isn’t better this year at a pace of 12 HR over the same number of AB as last year. If Story, who ranks highly defensively, could be re-signed and DeJong develops as a hitter then yes he’s blocking Gorman, and a nice problem to have, if he continues to struggle then a move to Gorman wouldn’t be hard.
And they aren’t going to be able to move Carpenter or Fowler contract. And they aren’t going to spend a ton of money. If they can move Martinez, Wong, O’Neill they would be selling low but can clear out Martinez and Wong money, get a couple lottery pick prospects to fill the void of what it would take to add a 3B/SS in prospects. I mentioned Story because hes a free agent after 2021 and Colorado could look to move him having the Arenado and Blackmon contracts already. Cardinals could make a competitive offer to him after 2021 to keep him with Carpenter and Fowler money coming off the books. Maybe they save too by keeping Sosa as the utility man in Miller’s spot. But Sosa is out of options and won’t be able to be sent down.
“Losing Wong’s defense would be a bigger deal than some make it out to be. Edman isn’t close to the defender Wong is. Run prevention is an important aspect of the game also.”
Maybe a little, but Edman is above average. Not suggesting putting Carpenter at 2B.
You said “hard no” on Arenado. I’d agree, with the contract, season he’s had and what they would want I’d not want him. But Trevor Story is a free agent after 2021. Move DeJong to 3B.
Vs rhp
1. Edman 2B
2. Pederson LF
3. Goldschmidt 1B
4. Story SS
5. DeJong 3B
6. Carlson CF
7. Molina C
8. Carpenter DH(assuming it happens)
9. Fowler RFMiller (or another utilityman), Ravelo?, Bader, Knizner
Vs LHP
1. Edman 2B
2. Carlson LF
3. Goldschmidt 1B
4. Story SS
5. DeJong 3B
6. Ravelo? DH
7. Molina C
8. Bader CF
9. Fowler RFNot saying it’s perfect or would happen. But I think it’s way better than what we see now.
Kinda looks weird but should they…
1. Wong 2B
2. Carlson LF
3. Goldschmidt 1B
4. Edman 3B
5. DeJong SS
6. Carpenter DH
7. Molina C
8. Bader CF
9. Fowler RFMiller, Ravelo, O’Neill, Wieters
“Blocking Gorman, Montero, Nunuez, Walker, and others doesn’t make sense to me. Let Edman play 3B and Carp or Miller DH until those young guys get here”
Gorman – lots of K’s. .910 fielding % with 21 errors last year. Can he stick at 3B?
Montero – worse fielder, terrible numbers at AA, his highest level, questions about him at 3B all along. If DH stays his bat may come around and give him a spot, more likely a move to LF.
Nunez – I’ve seen little of him. But everything I’ve read says he can hit, has no position.
Walker – 18 years oldI’d give up Montero and Nunez in a package to get a 3B to put in the middle of this order. Look at Gorman moving OF and possibly being who replaces Fowler. They need a bat to win in 2021, not this 4-6 year potential. That’s all we heard about the OF and now it’s all dried up and nothing to show at the big leagues for it yet. Bader and Thomas time is getting a short to prove something. Edman is a 2B. Get him there. Get a little back for the players I listed and get the money off the books.
With Pederson’s age, an incentive laden, 1 year deal to get back on the open market could make sense to him.
I’ve been a fan of Joc and while he’s had a tough year this year, I’d take a chance if the money was right, he’s put up numbers in the past.I think they have to pick up Wong option and then trade him. I know 1 year at 12.5 isn’t going to have much value, but they can get a little something to replace some prospects to get a 3B. Could also think “outside the box” and look at SS trades and moving DeJong to 3B. If the DH stays then Carpenter probably has to be the DH because of the money. Re-sign Miller for a utilityman. Trade Martinez (get rid of the money), O’Neill, Webb, Sosa (out of options)
1. Edman – 2B
2. Pederson – LF
3. Goldschmidt – 1B
4. ??? 3B
5. DeJong – SS
6. Carlson – CF
7. Molina – C
8. Folwer – RFMiller, Carpenter, Ravelo, Bader (CF vs LHP, Carlson to LF), Knizner
Flaherty, Kim, Mikolas, Gomber, Wainwright
Poncedeleon, Helsley, Cabrera, Reyes, Gant, Miller, Gallegos, Hicks
DL- Hudson(probably), Brebbia
AAA possibilities include Woodford, Oviedo, Elledge, Fernandez, Whitley, Sanchez, Schrock, Dean, Thomas, WilliamsI don’t know that it’s any better, but you know they aren’t going to spend money. I think it’s a step in the right direction and then Fowler, Carpenter, Wainwright are gone after 2021 and there is money free up to continue the overhaul
“If you’re going to give Thomas a shot, why not give a shot to Williams?
At Memphis last season in 36 games –
.353/.437/.608/1.0456’2”, 215 lbs.
Left handed bat”Maybe he shouldn’t have punched a TV in a domestic dispute and cost him so much of the season, shown better in spring and summer. I haven’t seen a lot if him. But what I have seen tells me Cabrera was the target, Ramirez was flyer on his breaking ball, Williams was a LH bat on the 40 man TB had to clear, but the main target was getting something for Pham’s disruptive attitude off the team.
The PCL was offensive crazy last season. And everything I’ve seen Williams isn’t close to the talent of O’Neill who I trust the least of Carlson, Thomas, Bader, O’Neill.