[thejager]

Bruce combined with a hosmer or Donaldson like player would do the trick..

i only worry with Bruce because he is super streaky…having watched him for years in Cincy i know what his ugly ABs look like, and they look a lot like Grichuk but from the left side…

i dunno…Donaldson and Bruce would be an upgrade but both have red flags

[thejager]

I think Bruce is an under the radar possibility as he may come cheaper than the big names yet still might give similar numbers

[thejager]

Eh. I just think out loud is all. Sometimes I’m cheap sometimes I think spending makes sense

As for my earlier thoughts.

Money is definitely going up if we go big player fixes which seems like is where we are going

Without moving Fowler it definitely raises us up next year. But after that it’s not terrible

Waino gone removes about 20m
If we can move Fowler for half cost that’d be another 10
Piscotty gone clears money
Gyorko gone clears money

-Archer adds money but good value for the cost and adds a #1 to solidify
-Stanton is big money but he brings youth and fans and advertising and coverage whether we win or lose and is as scary a bat as there is
-hosmer will b big money but still young and a good dependable bat with good defense

It is big money but each would be major impacts at good ages and top end value and worth

You spend big money on big talent and the fear of losing big goes away with each of these guys as ea h has a proven track record of being good and impactful It’s about as safe an investment as possible IMO

[thejager]

he isnt really an OF LArry…but i agree i like Hosmer too

what does everyone think MErcado’s ETA is and how he fits in….i am very intrigued by his step forward this year…

[thejager]

i love great trade discussions! should be fun to read Sooner

how about this:

-trade for Stanton (we take on a major part of the salary so we dont have to give up too much prospect wise, maybe Grichuk + young arm (Flaherty? Gomber?)+ young middle infielder Sosa?)
-trade for Archer (use Kelly and a good SP Hudson? and an outfielder Piscotty?)
-sign Hosmer 100mil+
-sign Nicasio
-sign Duke (i like him but i coudl understand if we wouldnt do it)
-sign vet backup catcher (Hanigan?)
-trade Greg Garcia or Diaz (i pick Garcia as Diaz i think is a slightly better SS than Garcia IMO)
-trade Gyorko (value is high)
-trade Voit (still has good enough value i’d have to think)
-check in for anyone interested in Fowler, if someone bites who might eat most of the salary for a lesser prospect then go for it, but if he stays so be it

that adds a lot of payroll, but frees up a little bit and is mitigated by departure of Waino

Cmart, Archer, Wacha, Weaver, Waino/Reyes
Nicasio, Duke, Brebbia, Cecil, Tuivalala, Bowman, Lyons
Carp(3b),Pham(Cf),Hosmer(1b),Stanton(RF),Fowler(LF),DeJong(SS),Yadi(C),Wong(2b)
Hanigan,Diaz,JMart,Bader,Wisdom/Valera

I know people dont like Carp at 3rd…i get it…but he is capable, plus with Diaz on the bench and maybe Wisdom we would be fine
that team addresses all our major concerns and upgrades us across the board…the very back end is still a question mark but i think they like what they have seen with Nicasio…plus Reyes coudl always factor in in the pen too…i just dont see us spending huge money on a closer when we need to spend money on bats

Thinking out loud is all…just where my thoughts are at at the moment

[thejager]

oh…and as for us strongly pursuing Donaldson this offseason…. why now and not earlier in the year when it could have helped TWO years?

he was coming back from an injury around the trade deadline so i get that his value might have been seen as lower…but i cant imagine we are only interested NOW

[thejager]

I liked Donaldson as a target when we could have used him for TWO years worth of value… but with just one…i am not sure the steep price would be worth it…

how steep would i go?

Grichuk or a good prospect not named Sierra or Bader or Oneill… plus a decent pitching prospect and decent middle infield prospect

probably woudlnt get it done though

NOW…if we could get Donaldson and Osuna….then that changes things

[thejager]

i agree on all accounts…. that doesnt still make it intriguing…

i think a lot of people didnt think Leake would waive his no trade either, but he did….

I dont necessarily think it is a perfect fit for us or them, but just think that kind of thinking when it comes to trades is good…

trying to find a match for Fowler is an interesting idea in and of itself…i’m not against keeping him and think he had a pretty good year outside the injuries…id prefer if he moved to the corners but he isnt terrible…

however if we could find a deal that he was happy with and woudl help us i dont see why not thinking about it

someone else brought up the Mets at some point…they’d let him play Cf with Conforto and Cespedes at the corners…but i dont know if he’d want to go to that team that has a lot of question marks in it… and what would be coming back in a deal like that?….

where else could Fowler fit?

also…we’ve talked ad nauseum about the obvious trade targets
who are some others that we could discuss that might be available that coudl fit our big bat beeds? jones is definitely someone i dont think many have talked about…and even with the roadblocks that doesnt cancel anything out but off the top of my head…
Jones
Cespedes maybe? maybe he wants to get out…do we want him anyways?
Upton?
Myers
Lamb
Freeman

just some ideas…i could see scenarios for lots of types of additions…

[thejager]

CC…i like the idea of Fowler for Jones straight up… that is a pretty clever idea…both sides are risking a bit, but getting good potential rewards back

doubt it happens but that is a pretty intriguing type of trade

[thejager]

blah… bummer of a loss…amazing catch though

been such an up and down season, but it could have been a lot worse

we saw lots of young talent show their promise, had to say goodbye to some veterans, and had to deal with some very spotty play from stalwarts

it will be a very interesting offseason to say the least….

but we have 3 more games of baseball to watch and i am going to enjoy every pitch. We could still get 2nd in the division and be 1st out in the WC…. it’s not much to get excited about but i’d rather be 2nd than 3rd

Go Cards!

[thejager]

Iff remember right …OT came up because he was raking…they were pushing him as fast as he could keep up

he didnt do poorly with the big league club either, just had a short chance

[thejager]

On longoria vs gyork
I get the thought however I’d say we need a middle order hitter not. Cause we need 40hrs but because we need a dependable solid player who has some fear that comes from him

I’d prefer a younger version of Longoria but I like Longoria’s consistency over time. Gyorko has been pretty streaky ever since he came up in SD

The one year of Donaldson is concerning IMO. Earlier this year. Sure. Now. Eh I dunno not sure how much I’d give up for a 1yr rental

[thejager]

we have celebrated at their place…doesnt bother me…they have earned their wins against us especially late…. sometimes you win sometimes you lose and sometimes it rains..

tip your cap and move on

it still is very exciting though….that’s all i can hope for any year

[thejager]

i think we are still feeling and reeling from the after effects of losing Taveras… not only was he major part of the future of the organization, but they had set up the organization to accommodate his presence, when he passed we started grasping at fixes and they just havent panned out…

Grichuk seems to be what he is… I give Piscotty another year after what happened to him on and off the field…last year we were willing to throw away Wong after his bad year but he came in this year and really turned it around… guys are allowed to have a poor year without them being worthless and not part of the plan…

I want a middle order bat more because i want some stability instead of hopes and dreams of guys panning out in our favor…we just have too many guys who are at the point in their career whether due to injury, age or youth that are hard to depend on without hesitance…

it used to be we MOSTLY had those guys and then got surprised by up and comers…when we shifted from FA fixes for the offense and went young first we took some big risks like Taveras filling our needs long term. Unfortunately the unfortunate happened and we are still trying to figure out a solution

MM has had to deal with trying to fix those needs by using what he has…sometimes that was going with the vets for their dependableness… sometimes too long…but that’s a tough line to draw and determine when you dont have endless money to throw at Cuba and FA nor have a stable of high 1st rd picks stockpiled due to poor play for years

MM’s success so far buys him next year…but if we dont make it this year nor next i cant imagine he stays….the CArdinals have high standards and deservedly so… and though we will still end up probably with a top 10ish record… people want playoffs… total wins buys you time but playoffs buys your a future…MM has to show he can not only get to the playoffs, but also how to get a team BACK to the playoffs after scuffling whether due to injury, poor play or whatever… He is close, but getting over that hump will be big and interesting to see whether he can do it..

he isnt going anywhere this offseason so all the hate on him is screaming to the void… and i just dont see how it makes anyone feel better…it seems like all it does is bias you to any bad outcome….and as he isnt going anywhere at least for next year (after that Dewitt interview)…maybe it woudl be better if you complain about something that might actually change…otherwise you will just make your life miserable…

enjoy the game and team however you like…I just dont see why hating on something that isnt changing is going to help you enjoy your fandom…seems like a waste of time to me… but that’s to me…i waste my time on other dumb things so do as you will….

but attacking other people for their opinions is just unacceptable…just because you yell louder than someone else…or there are several people yelling at one or two people doesnt make YOUR opinion any righter than theirs…. I THINK my opinion is better because i came to it and havent been convinced in any way to change that opinion… if you cant handle BCC or me or anyone else defending their opinion without throwing personal attacks then you are just making your argument weaker….and the same goes vice versa… i’m not outside of this criticism either…nor is anyone no matter their amount of posts, past history, status whether paid member, or not, moderator, admin, owner whatever…

[thejager]

i think that makes sense Gscott

why not add in longoria to the deal?

It’d be the picture of a blockbuster, but it would basically fill all our needs

Archer + Colome + Longoria
for
????…but it would be a lot

or even going after just Archer and Longoria

I know Longoria is on the wrong side of 30 but he has always been a solid player…he might not be the perfect middle order hitter, but i’d definitely be interested

or JUST Archer i’d be fine with…

I know they have Wilson Ramos, but would Kelly interest them? And if so could we offer Knizner instead?

who is really hurting for a catcher? and has a starting pitcher or power hitter we’d really want?

I”m not saying deal Knizner or Kelly BUT…if we can find someone desperate or very interested in our catchers then the already high trade value of Kelly would go even higher…at some point the value we could get would outweigh the future i’d think

[thejager]

I am aScott Feldman “fan” he pitched well for a por Reds team and though he got hurt late he was pretty dependable…and on a one year contract… im not sure he gets a longer one again this offseason, and there would be no love lost if he is passed by a youngster.. he is a vet and while i am uncertain on his value in the pen having another vet around if we dont re-sign Lynn may be helpful…

though having said that…there are a back of the rotation starters available this offseason (as any offseason really)

i might not even mind Bartolo Colon

a one year deal for low money and i’d be fine…

i think a lot of it depends on Wainwright’s status…which makes the offseason difficult…
if you dont re-sign Lynn and can count on Waino being back that leaves one spot for Flaherty or Reyes or whomever

If you don’t re-sign Lynn AND can’t depend on Waino being back (which i think is the case right now), then you have two open spots…and that really is not a good idea IMO…I am not even sure i want to hand Flaherty or Reyes or Gant or whomever a spot in the rotation just yet anyways

If you can re-sign Lynn…this all goes away…as you can put Waino AND the kids in one spot…that’s good depth for injury and Waino not being back…

IMO all signs point to a starting pitcher being acquired…somehow…if Wainwright woudl have returned to the rotation and been able to throw 91 or so…then maybe you take the risk on the kids and him…but Waino being a bigger question mark than he was even a week ago..I think a starter is another thing that is a MUST for the offseason…

the quality of that starter will be a big question and should show how much confidence in the kids or Waino…OR the lack of confidence in them the management has… won’t be an easy decision with so many other needs and deals needing to be made

offseason for me:

-acquire middle order bat
-acquire a closer or at least a very dependable setup man
-acquire a starter either #5 level OR go for an impact starter
-acquire a backup catcher
-trade at least 2 middle infield players from 40 man or that need to be protected for Rule V
-trade at least 3 outfielders from 40man or need protecting ( i would say at least 2 should be from MLB)
-trade at least 2 relievers from 40man or needing to be protected
-trade at least 1 starting pitching prospect from 40man or in need of protecting

That is a lot…and while some of those moves could be done in combination..it still is a lot

[thejager]

Show me a year to year contract out there
No player goes year to year outside the crazy exception like Lincecum early on or marginal Mlb talent. And Yadi is top 5 level at his position unless HE wanted to it wouldn’t happen so saying that is even an option is just unfair to even posit

Again with the MOST people comment. I’ll just say it too and it will have the same worthless value as a discussion point. Most people think YAdi is great and one of the best ever and active catchers defensively ever. Most people think his value to making pitchers better and calling a game is unmatched in baseball. Most people think we are spoiled by seeing how good he is and have little understanding of what it means to have a poor catcher.

The team determines the value not you or the media. I gave options for value not necessarily the ones they determined were to be used nor their criteria for meeting that value. They did that and determined he deserved what they gave him. And what happened? He performed brilliantly and has been healthy.

And the team is right in the hunt. Even without 2 starters from the rotation and a totally different bullpen.

[thejager]

So exactly WHY is MM bad?

Lay it out front to back. State your reasons and any facts you have to back it up. List them out ad neauseum

Then let Bcc or anyone else say their rebuttal to your positions and points.

Right now all I hear is vague rebuttals and platitudes and bcc spends time trying to post facts and figures for the most part. The. Usually the posts end in a personal insult to Bcc or me or even the idea of anything opposite to your own thoughts

Make it all specific and discuss your thoughts specifically and pointedly without attacking. Maybe make it like 10 specifIc bullet points as a Start and let both sides respond. Then respond to their responses

Also and lastly I love that I personally get scolded for defending the team I am supposed to be a fan of. And being optimistic and encouraging on this Season
And even in the face of all my those personal attack’s I continue to be excited and encouraged by what I see. And how I have been told ALL year I was delusional and this team was terrible and had zero shot at the playoffs and Low and behold look at ya right there with only 1.5 games to make up in 9 to get in.

Go ahead and attack me for having hope and being optimistic instead of being pessimists and deciding to give up at first opportunity. The use that first opportunity to attack all season long even if those things got better and the team got better and more competitive as the season went on.

Defense has been very good compared to other teams the second half. And improved greatly from the beginning of the year. Same goes for the baserunning.

But since people gave up so early an made up their minds on this team no matter the outcome as otherwise they’d think they’d be a fool.

And if the team doesn’t make it in. If I am made a fool for supporting the team from start to finish I will have been the happiest fool for the whole season as all I did was support and hope the best instead of looking for the worst as a means to make me feel better about giving up early

I criticize this team and gms and coaches and players a lot. But people act because I support the team and hope for the best that I don’t. And the. They the say criticizing doesn’t mean They don’t support them, but then in threads like this they give zero credit for fixing issues or getting better. Even if this team made the playoffs and went on to win the WS they’d still just say it’s a fluke to save face. That’s obvious negative bias and thus make for poor to impossible discussion

[thejager]

People need to stop acting like bccran is alone. I speak up too but he definitely is th most vocal.

But you can’t blame people
For not wanting to post in agreement in fear of being lambasted should they speak up.

Just because some people yell loud doesn’t mean they control the majority. And when those loud yelling voices are the ones with an ability to influence at a greater ability and thus further their own opinions by pouting at other loud yelling influencers

Loud doesn’t have to be wrong but it is not always a voice of the majority

Most of the rhetoric in this thread posits Matheny as terrible. bccran tried to posit equivalences to help temper the idea that it’s a black and white issue yet he gets attacked as if he doesn’t see flaws or problems and that somehow Matheny isn’t even worth defending. Yet Bcc presents plenty of reason why we should temper evaluation of Matheny for several reasons including team makeup comparison. Wins and losses. Experience. Playoff appearances. Comparison to other Cardinal managers. WaR lost to injury. Also player comparisons of foes

It’s hard not to see the attack’s on Matheny as hating when the opinion seems to be at the expense of valid information for good comparison

Throw in when one side refuses to give credit to Matheny for what he has done in the past and even this year and you have pretty straightforward negative bias

[thejager]

mud

Barnhart signed the extension NOt mesoraco. Who only has one year remaining. So that whole paragraph is off base. PLUS one bad thro is a Terrible means to evaulate IMO. And go look at his defensive WAR. I believe he had the highest or second highest defensive WAR this year. Barnhart has been VERY good.

As for that trade. It would seem like a classic overpay. And one I’d hate to see and hope doesn’t happen. Now if the deal would have been in May this year and we could have gotten Ozuna too maybe adding a lower level Ofer. Now that I would have understood and maybe got behind. Though it still feels light for Kelly. But at least it would have helped THIS year and next and addressed 2 big concerns for this year and next.

[thejager]

Until he shows he isn’t worth the salary he deserves it IMO

You pay what it takes to keep someone sometimes. Paying more than WAR projections doesn’t mean it isn’t worth every cent

Most is onfield play. But also the value of him not playing against you has worth. Value of veteran status. Clubhouse. Mentoring. Fan base love also has worth.

Quantifying worth is far from precise. And performance evaluating whether someone has earned that worth is even farther from exacting.

[thejager]

why is giving a good contract to a good player who is producing a bad thing?

yes people were saying he should be let go instead of re-signing him…go back and look

there is no evidence that less playing time would result in better stats for Molina nor better play from the team…you cant beat father time…but you can put him off… Yadi wouldn’t be the first guy who can play at a high level into his late 30’s

Kelly has shown nothign but minor league stats to show such extreme confidence that he can produce at the MLB level…definitely nothign at the level of moving off a top 5 catcher of his routine

yes Molina is still good…his “good” is still WAY better than most catchers out there…and definitely better than any other options out there including Kelly

[thejager]

i think Voit moves off and Wisdom goes on….I dont think Wisdom makes it through Rule V… his defense at 3rd might be good enough reason to snag him for a late game defensive wiz, but add in that he can also be a power hitting righty off the bench who can also play 1b…those HRs would probably not let him get through…the defense to me makes it a no doubter

IMO Wisdom is the guy we should have up right now instead of Voit… he does the job we want out of Voit better anyways…as he can play 1b and 3b and hit for power with low average…except he adds a great arm at 3b

coudlnt we move off Voit now and add Wisdom…and nto lose Voit to Rule 5 if he passes through?

I feel like we’d have a better chance at getting Voit through waivers than we would at getting Wisdom through Rule 5

[thejager]

the Reds have Barnhadt and love him…he is a gutsy player who isa top notch defender AND has a decent enough stick… also they still have MEsoraco on a contract no one else will take if he isnt healthy so they are basically locked into hoping for the best with Mesoraco and being happy with Barnhardt the whole time…plus they rule V’d that Stuart Turner kid and kept him up the whole year….

i just dont see the Reds needing a catcher…or if so not being willing to give up what we shodul be asking for a return in Kelly…

Mejia’s stick looks strong…his defense is getting better….he is up right now to pinch hit…

personally i like a bit more size on my catchers for the long seasons, and Kelly fits that better IMO…and i think Kelly projects well…i dunno…I have no problem in rankings picking Meija over Kelly…and Kelly is right there with him…

we may be bias a bit..but Kelly is no Bryan Anderson…Kelly definitely is a high overall prospect at his position…offensively and defensively… we may not get to see it for a while if he doesnt get traded but he is definitely going to play at the MLB level…will it be for us will it be for someone else….will he last very long anyways? I dunno… but he will get a legitimate shot

[thejager]

Bucs will definitely not roll over…neither will the Reds tonight… we will have to earn any chance we might get to make the playoffs

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