July 5, 2017 at 8:12 am #26631Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
From the moment the Jays acquired Donaldson from Oakland, I had wished St. Louis had been the destination instead. The price will be steeper now.
The key word in the tweet below is “formal”. When a discussion moves from “informal” to “formal” is a purposely gray area, leaving ample room for denials.
Even so, this is the very thinnest kind of rumor. Though from a credible source, it should not be overvalued.
— Jon Morosi (@jonmorosi) July 5, 2017July 5, 2017 at 8:15 am #26634
and so it begins…
will be costly, but it should be
he fits in a lot of ways…
i wonder fi this means the Cardinals feel much more confident going the rest of the way with Pham/Grichuk/Martinez/Sierra/Bader being good enough for a push
i prefer Donaldson over JD Martinez in LF for a few months even if it costs moreJuly 5, 2017 at 9:08 am #26639
I’d start with whichever the Jays prefer of Gyorko or Wong, throw in Weaver, Bader and pick of Hicks or Alcantara. A pretty heavy price but one well worth paying. This lineup badly needs a consistent impact bat.July 5, 2017 at 9:26 am #26641Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
Morosi offers more details.July 5, 2017 at 9:34 am #26643gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
Donaldson is struggling big time this year so maybe that will drive his price down a bit, and also the fact he will be a FA after 2018.July 5, 2017 at 9:36 am #26645Cardinals2016ParticipantFree
“To that end, trading Josh Donaldson, a free agent after the 2018 season, for prospects isn’t on the agenda.”
So, if you read that whole article – it doesn’t look like Toronto will go through a rebuild just like St. Louis won’t. So, for the Cardinals to acquire Donaldson, the package going back has to start with Gyorko and include several prospects.
And we know Mozeliak doesn’t make those kinds of trades.July 5, 2017 at 9:55 am #2665214NyquisTParticipant
I usually don’t comment on trades but I think the Cards should go big on acquiring Donaldson IF and only IF the F.O. feels that they can maintain him past ’18. They would probably have to start with Gyorko and Wong and Delvin Perez plus a young P …. Woodford, Seijas, Alcantara or DGonzalez. With a TOR prospect coming back.July 5, 2017 at 11:15 am #26661Bw52ParticipantPaid - Annual
Don`t see Mo and management making any kind of BOLD TRADE at all .I think Cards would do something like a Duda for Marco Gonzalez and a mid-level prospect .That’s what I would expect from the front office.July 5, 2017 at 11:23 am #26662RatsbuddyParticipantFree
Is Donaldson an outfielder or a 3rdbaseman???July 5, 2017 at 11:43 am #26665forsch31ParticipantFree
The comment that was made earlier about JD Martinez only referred to Martinez being a LF. Donaldson is a 3Bman. That is where he would play for the Cardinals.July 5, 2017 at 11:47 am #26666
Gyorko and Wong alone outvalue two years of Donaldson. Also think the glut of pitching would mean the Cards would overpay pitching to avoid trading Perez (as would I). Regardless, it seems like a long shot.July 5, 2017 at 11:49 am #26667
I’m fine with giving up Gyorko, i like him as a super utility but as middle order everyday thump i’d prefer Donaldson
Wong seems as if he is going to get 2b if healthy, they committed to him with that contract, and he has played pretty well this year, plus we have backups for 2b
Donaldson covers 3rd (and we have part time backups anyways)
A Donaldson trading Gyorko as the central part of the deal is fine with me…even if it includes some good prospects… Gyorko and Donaldson together on the team doesnt seem to mesh unless Wong is gone…and i dont see that happening…
Gyorko was had for Jon Jay… at the end of the day if someone would have said Jono Jay plus a couple good/decent prospects for Donaldson i’d have been fine with that
a 2017/2018 lineup of
Carp/Fowler/Donaldson/Piscotty/Diaz or DeJong/Pham or Grichuk/Yadi/Wong
I think the Jays could use middle infield depth so maybe someone like Garcia might have some value too…not a world beater but they seem pretty thin in the middle infield…maybe Diaz would be interesting to them?
-infield prospect or MLBer
-2 pitching prospects 1 good and 1 lower decent
for 1.5 years of Donaldson…with chance of re-signing him OR getting draft pick compensation after he leaves (or we could trade him next year)July 5, 2017 at 1:09 pm #26673Cardinals2016ParticipantFree
I think when you are going for upgrades, you go for your worst performing positions first. So far this year, that has been our outfield. Can’t upgrade Fowler because we gave him $16.5 million per year (while he is worth about $10 million per year) and a full NTC. That leaves LF & RF for upgrades.
As for Gyorko, he has been the one player that has been both a plus defender and a plus bat. I would prefer to deal Wong and move Gyorko to 2B. .300/.350/.500 from a 2B would be All Star production.July 5, 2017 at 1:18 pm #26674bicyclemikeModeratorPaid - Annual
Replacing Gyorko with Donaldson makes no sense to me. Gyorko is having a much better year, seems to be trending upward, and is almost 3 years younger than Donaldson. Donaldson is struggling, and at 31 could be on a downward trend.
What has hurt the Cardinals offense this year is not third base, but first base and right field. Carpenter and especially Piscotty have not been as consistent as projected.
If we want an impact bat, I think you have to look at the outfield for changes. When Fowler comes back, he probably plays and then you almost have to keep Pham in the lineup. That leaves Piscotty as the odd man out if we could get a better player.July 5, 2017 at 1:43 pm #26677
We are 4.5 back and under .500
If we get him for not much great… If we have to give up anything of consequence that idea is insane.
One week of good play doesnt change cold hard facts.July 5, 2017 at 1:57 pm #26680Bw52ParticipantPaid - Annual
Trading Piscotty would be as foolish as expecting Tommy Pham to last a full season and be productive.Just don
t see it happening.Piscotty is younger and still can be a solid player with some upside.I think Pham is at his absolute peak right now and will only regress.Grichuks struggles have probably dropped his value a bit and Pham is probably viewed as a half-season wonder …….So who are the Cards best trade chips….Gyorko and his versatility,Lynn because he is a pitcher who can be very good at times,Oh because he was good last season and possibly be solid in several bullpen roles,Wong if he comes back healthy could be a chance for a contender.I would hope Mo and FO consider doing something to improve the team besides just hoping for better play.July 5, 2017 at 2:04 pm #26681
I would argue quite strongly that youre both right and wrong.
Our team accumulates talent like very few. Carpenter would be fine if he wasn’t playing first as an example.
He has been so he hasnt been fine.
Our problems are 2/3 caused by bad roster management. Pham is a perfect example here. No question he should be our cf at this point. But somehow our front office thought it was smart to sign a slightly above average player to a huge contract to play center when our organization is loaded with people who can play there at roughly the same level of defense or better.
Carpenter? His bat plays anywhere but first, dh, or left field. So you have to play him where he plays well and deal away other players.
And if you want to improve your d you have to deal carpenter.
This isnt rocket science.
Only way to fix problems that we are seeing is to essentially clear the clog… Or trim the overgrown tree to give another metaphor.
Deal players away… Not accumulate more and create a larger cluster.
Having said that… I dont mind Donaldson if he is CHEAP. But we still have to clear our roster to a large extent.July 5, 2017 at 2:26 pm #26687gscottarParticipantPaid - Annual
Since our two biggest needs have been a big bat and shoring up the bullpen why not try to do both with the Jays?
Gyroko, Grichuk, Marco, Alcantara, and Hudson for Donaldson and Osuna.July 5, 2017 at 2:30 pm #26688
cold hard facts are that regardless of our record we are one week of good play from being the division leader and getting into the playoffs, which does actually matter
we probably dont need anyone to still make a move, but if we did get him we would have a bonafide threat in the middle of our lineup…someone opposing pitchers have to be aware of…that lets the guy in front of him get better pitches and the guy after him too…
we dont have anyone that scares anyone out there…and all respect to Gyorko but one almost full year of good performance does throw away his poor performances as well, and he is pretty streaky…and while he started off hot definitely has went through lulls…Donaldson is an MVP player…Gyorko is not…he didnt even get the AS bid from our team this year…and that;s with his versatility and solo HR hitting bat
even if Donaldson has missed a bit of time and is a little older, just inserting him in the lineup will make the guys around him better…
he wont come cheap, and we wouldnt getting him for nothing…
he would help the team the day he comes in as well as all of next year, and still give usa return in FA or as trade chip next year
i dont like moving on from Gyorko…i just dont see how he fits unless as starting 3bman..
Piscotty isnt going anywhere, Carp isnt going anywhere, Fowler, Wong, Yadi, probably not Diaz either…that leaves two spots…3b and LF…Gyorko and Pham/Grichuk
3b we have little impact level depth anywhere… Gyorko is nice, and has played better defense than many thought…but after him what do we have? Wisdom? Dejong looks mroe like a SS,…and?
LF we actually have a lot of options…Pham is well now, Grichuk can still be important, Bader ,Sierra…all pretty much available right now to help out and goign forward…and even some more OF down the line too)
Why not fill the spot on your roster that doesnt have much depth with a veteran until a youngster emerges.,…we’ve already seen several OFer emerge as viable MLB talent..possibly even impact level
Donaldson for 2 years fills a nice void, and gives the option to potentially even re-sign…
2018-19 is probably going to be the biggest FA offseason ever… and there is impact talent all over the place to be had at every position…
snagging a guy right now gets us to that offseason…and wouldnt handcuff us from going big for Machado if we were willing to put up the money
Donaldson makes a lot of sense for the team..it isnt a .5 year rental…and we have a bit of a logjam with our depth..he fulfills a role we dont have anyone that can fill…July 5, 2017 at 2:31 pm #26689
that’s a pretty good idea…Osuna and Donaldson…
think we may have to give up something else nice too, but i like your thinkingJuly 5, 2017 at 2:53 pm #26691
None of which fixes the actual issue
Creating a bigger mess means we essentially have to give talent away to fix it in a year or so
You cant complain about matt adams so much then try to create more trades like that with your actions. We flat out have to clear our roster BEFORE we move forward or all youre doing is giving talent away.
Your solutions are anything but.July 5, 2017 at 3:25 pm #26694
How is acquiring an elite talent by cleaning out the extra parts not part of a good plan? Who says we couldn’t trade Gyorko plus 3 prospects for Donaldson and then turn around and trade Lynn, Oh, Rosie and maybe Grichuk or potentially Diaz or Wong to ease the log jam? This would remove some of the chaff while still giving the team a good floor and plenty of flexibility for the big 2018 and 2019 offseason.
All I’ve heard from you is “tank and hope for the best.” I’m sure you know this but throwing away proven performers for prospects doesn’t always work and unless you’re happy with the Cincinnati Reds approach, perhaps the FO should be given some leeway to continue to do what they have been doing.July 5, 2017 at 3:43 pm #26696bicyclemikeModeratorPaid - Annual
Some good points, especially comments on the roster. Part of the problem this team has had is the roster does not work well. Carpenter is a bit of an enigma, as his bat does not play all that well as a first baseman, and for whatever reason he and the organization feel he cannot bat anywhere but leadoff. And while he does have value there, we need more slugging from first base than a get-on-base guy.
Thus part of the answer is to deal Carpenter, and possibly others with the goal being to get a strong bat back that can play first base and hit in either the 3 or 4 slot. Or possibly third base or the outfield, with Gyorko or maybe Piscotty going to first. Either that, or get pitching help and give the first base job to Voit, which is a gamble.
I cannot understand the willingness to deal Gyorko, thinking you can improve the offense. Trade him, and you just gave up your top WAR player, so you are starting in negative ground. You would need to get a guy that can replace that WAR in the second half, and then you are only breaking even. Gyorko is exactly what we need at the position he plays.
Carpenter is the guy you shop, as he should bring a good return, and with the right deal the roster could fall in to place.July 5, 2017 at 4:07 pm #26698
Donaldson is elite talent but not elite production… This year. He could go either way after this year.
Want a similar player? Carpenter if he plays second. He could be great past this year nobody knows.
Gyorko is one of those players I am very willing in fact eager to deal. Just not in a deal for donaldson. I feel like youre going sideways at best because like it or not this year counts and giving more talent to do it.
Even if gyorko isnt for real long term you can sell him high… Donaldson is worth it just not at the expense of losing one of your most tradeable assets.
P.s. If all you are reading is “tank and hope for the best” you arent reading it right. Im advocating addition by subtraction THEN making moves like this.
We simply have too many missmatched pieces to go adding more.
Right now we need to simplify our roster we simply have too many parts that dont fit. Adding yet another one before you sell will kill off the value of the parts you want to sell.
If you add donaldson then one or several other parts become worthless.
You end up giving away talent which is unacceptable.July 5, 2017 at 4:19 pm #26699
Then why can’t both be done at once? I agree it’s unacceptable to give away talent for nothing. Getting 1.5 years and possibly 8 WAR from Donaldson would be more than we would probably get from trading Gyorko on his own (not to mention he’s a regression candidate and has tailed off from his hot start). We could trade him separately and hope to get a star we can develop…or just use him to get the actual star.
So, just to get some clarity…your position is that we should sell off our players at the deadline, then…replace them with call ups, see how they pan out and then decide what other moves need to be made?
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