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Very true, CC. I’m still thinking about a post earlier in this thread that states “In very timely and appropriate news…another of the catcher-first time managers bites the dust….”
That’s trying to compare Brad Ausmus from the Tigers with his 62-92 record this year to our manager who is 81-72 and still very much in the playoff hunt.
Much was written about the young guard of catchers-turned managers, as it was a trend across the game. The fact that Ausmus was let go just yesterday made it a timely point to make in this thread, in my opinion. Others a right to disagree, but taking the wording personally is an unnecessary reaction.
I have already started an article for another site about this. The Tigers and Cards have some similarities, both successful franchises, but passed by a younger foe in their division. In Detroit’s case, it is Cleveland, who as we recall, was the Cubs’ opponent in the last World Series and a runaway leader in their division this year.
Detroit was projected as a second place team this year, with a veteran roster that included some big names, including Cabrera, Kinsler, Upton, JD Martinez and Verlander. As their season spiraled downward, Detroit decided to trade away the latter three players and rebuild.
Ausmus was no slouch, with two winning seasons in three and one playoff berth prior to 2017, in his first year. At that point, they still had Scherzer and Porcello. Last year, they missed the wild card by three games. But they are 30 games under .500 this season and decided a new manager would be a better fit with the rebuilding ahead.
Again, others can disagree, but I see the parallel as interesting as a comparison to managers from decades ago.
It is virtually universal on the national level by people who follow baseball or who have played. Ive seen it so much it has almost become a meme how bad our manager is.
…and I guaruntee I dont read as much as some people here.
You are in denial.
People need to stop acting like bccran is alone. I speak up too but he definitely is th most vocal.
But you can’t blame people
For not wanting to post in agreement in fear of being lambasted should they speak up.Just because some people yell loud doesn’t mean they control the majority. And when those loud yelling voices are the ones with an ability to influence at a greater ability and thus further their own opinions by pouting at other loud yelling influencers
Loud doesn’t have to be wrong but it is not always a voice of the majority
Most of the rhetoric in this thread posits Matheny as terrible. bccran tried to posit equivalences to help temper the idea that it’s a black and white issue yet he gets attacked as if he doesn’t see flaws or problems and that somehow Matheny isn’t even worth defending. Yet Bcc presents plenty of reason why we should temper evaluation of Matheny for several reasons including team makeup comparison. Wins and losses. Experience. Playoff appearances. Comparison to other Cardinal managers. WaR lost to injury. Also player comparisons of foes
It’s hard not to see the attack’s on Matheny as hating when the opinion seems to be at the expense of valid information for good comparison
Throw in when one side refuses to give credit to Matheny for what he has done in the past and even this year and you have pretty straightforward negative bias
When you get handed the keys to a defending champ and things go generally backwards…
Throw in horrible fundamentals.
I said it months ago and I will say it again. He hasnt necessarily been part of the problem. However he has DEFINITELY not been part of the solution. He is loyal to players but isnt capable of seeing their negatives.
At his pay grade those last two are inexcusable.
If there is a better manager he should be fired. I am not totally convinced on that front to be honest.
Thanks, Jager. I just guess Matheny haters simply have to be all one way. Even when someone like me says that the jury is still out and the makeup of the team hasn’t been as strong without players like Pujols, Berkman, Beltran, and a healthy Holliday in the middle of the lineup, they still want to jump on with negativism not only towards the manager but towards the poster. No matter what you lay out as far as his winning record and some of his pluses to go with his minuses, it simply doesn’t make any difference.
A poster like me who tries to look at both sides is “in denial, an apologist, a cool aid drinker, etc.”
Having a moderator (who is supposed to mainly be an arbitror for posting rules) jumping on during the managerial discussion and insulting other posters by saying they are over the top for their opinion is sure not helpful.Youre not looking at both sides. You’re concentrating on a few stats that are only partially in his control.
If you refuse to see the negative, which you are very good at (and jager is damn near famous for), it is fairly easy to think he is good.
I’m willing to go with him being average fyi… that isnt good enough for me with all the national opinions saying he is worse.
I’ll go along with average. He’s still a young manager who’s getting his feet on the ground. And the Cards have left him hanging without giving him true dugout experienced leadership support. I remember seeing Tony and Jim Leyland at Spring Training conferring about things, and thought that was really impressive.
THAT is a very valid point.
Edit: I still dont want us to be a development team for managers. I want us to be the destination
I’m in denial when I say that MM does indeed make mistakes, because I qualify it with the fact that
all managers make mistakes? That we all are human, and to err is human? Why do people like you always have to be on the attack, Brian?LOL… Me always attacking?
Not hardly. But you wont believe me anyway.
High pressure situations you are always under attack. Someone pointing out that he is at best average and that being part of a solution is a job requirement hardly qualifies as a feint much less an attack.
Go watch nebraska fans melt down if you want to see a fan base implode by eating their own. This isnt even in the same neighborhood.
Instead of opinions, let’s look at the changing face of the Cardinals roster over the past number of years and see what it tells us –
2010 –
2011 – Pujols/Holliday/Berkman/Rasmus/Molina/Freese/Theriot/Schumaker
2012 – Holliday/Beltran/Craig/Molina/Freese/Descalso/Furcal/Jay
2013 – Holliday/Beltran/Carpenter/Craig/Freese/Molina/Kozma/Jay
2014 – Holliday/Peralta/Craig/Jay/Wong/Adams/Molina/Carpenter
2015 – Holliday/Peralta/Carpenter/Reynolds/Wong/Bourjos/Heyward/Molina
2016 – Holliday(injured)/Peralta(injured)/Adams/Wong/Molina/Diaz/Grichuk/Piscotty
2017 – DeJong/Carpenter/Molina/Wong/Gyorko/Pham/Fowler/PiscottyIn an objective way, please notice the shift. There’s simply no experienced big bat meat in the middle of the lineup anymore. The failures of Grichuk and Piscotty as well as Adams have been monumental. Risks that haven’t paid off. We’ve gone from Pujols/Holliday/Berkman to (last night) Fowler/Martinez/Molina.
Matheny doesn’t have a top tier lineup like the Cubs, Nationals, Dodgers, Diamondbacks, Red Sox, Indians, Astros, etc. That’s why I tend to be less harsh than other posters.
Every manager deals with injuries. You still haven’t been able to defend his bullpen usage, leaving starters in games too long and poor double switches.
… And our rotation has gone the other direction generally speaking. 2011 we were middle of the pack … 8th in the nl. We are 4th with a terrible bullpen…. And wainwright having gotten old. By pretty much all measurements we have gotten younger and better and should improve next year again.
Some of that is matheny but you can’t have it both ways. If he isn’t responsible for the lack of development with hitters he isnt responsible for the development of pitching either.
I agree in one sense. I spent most of last summer loudly complaining we should go get trout and pay through the nose if necessary.
I still believe that would probably be the best move if paired with dumping fowler fyi…
But you’re talking out both sides of your mouth even if that is not what you intend.
If he is developing players then he is responsible for our lack of great hitters. If not, then the pitching isnt because of him either.
…And in that case, what is he doing to earn his money? I could get paid to do nothing too.
Note: I’ve said this to you before and you’re still not listening to simple facts.
I guess his bullpen usage has led to the troubles with Oh, Broxton, Cecil, Rosenthal, Duke, Siegrist, Socolivich, Mayers, etc. Right?
If half of them had pitched the way they were supposed to, we’d already have qualified for the playoffs.
When he puts them in situations where stats show they will fail, yes it’s his fault. Your delusion holds no bounds.
That many players imploding screams a bigger problem than individual failure.
Given his attitude… Any bets on whether he vouched for his veteran players in virtually every offseason?
We both know he did … Which is why our defense got worse…. Again. And we still had the same pitchers until he overused them and others imploded.
The gm shouldnt have to make moves to constantly save a manager from himself.
Between weaver, tui, etc do you really think the bullpen couldnt have been fixed sooner? How much of that is because matheny was saying things to our gm that were flat wrong?
It’s shameful how MM misused his relievers. Why look at these numbers –
Socolovich – 8.68 ERA
Broxton – 6.68 ERA
Duke – 5.02 ERA
Siegrist – 4.98 ERA
Cecil – 4.04 ERA
Bowman – 3.99 ERA
OH – 3.77 ERAAll of them must have been put into situations where they were destined to fail.
Seriously, people, it’s the failure of the pitchers in the bullpen this year. Not the way
they were used. If you say it was, you are really grabbing at straws.No matter how much you want to ignore facts it doesn’t make you correct. Must be nice to live with your head in the sand.
…. Uh… No. It is not grasping at straws when he uses the dependable ones damn near nightly.
If you have a weakness, thats one thing. Creating more weaknesses is his responsibility like it or not… And he definitely did it.
It’s incredible (and laughable) to see posters bash the front office for not getting a big bat for the middle of the lineup (or real bullpen help during the season) then turn around and bash MM for being a terrible manager. It’s like watching an Abbott and Costello skit.
Are you being insulting again? Do you have a need to do that, Brian?
Think about the logic. MM was not given a big bat for the middle of the lineup or help for the bulllen when he really needed it. Yet he is still in the playoff running with only 9 games to go. Let’s think about that.
And by the way, I looked up 2017 manager ratings and the first two I checked had MM at #14. Middle of the pack.
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