Cardinals OF roundup, who stays and who goes? (Grichuk)

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    So obviously this offseason the Cardinals are going to be making some changes, and the OF crunch is definitely one of the biggest topics for discussions on who stays and goes

    we can talk all the way down to A ball if you want…but i figure most would be 40man eligible or close…but really this is just a jumping off idea for talking through people’s personal evaluations of value for OFers in the system and who is seen by everyone to be worth more to keep or worth more as trade value

    Just a big OF discussion

    So…from whom we have, who do you think stays and who do you think goes?

    and bonus… what is the starting 3 on opening day next year?…maybe who you WANT and who you THINK (if you think someone outside will be in it or you want that, feel free to throw that in too!

    the way i see it these are the players from inside the organization:

    at the moment i THINK we will have:
    Pham, Fowler, Piscotty

    what i WANT…would be:
    Bader, Pham, Stanton

    I think Sierra, Piscotty, can be dealt, Grichuk too…but i think he has good value as a bench 4th OF with pop who plays good defense…but perhaps ONeill and Garcia are ready to help out there too…

    I’m not exactly sure how to START this discussion other than just throwing it out there…

    go into as much detail as you want or as little… or dont participate…i just thought this is the most obvious discussion about players that will need to be moved and decided on what to do with…



    1.) Fowler is signed through 2021. He’s a good piece, but not a centerpiece (so to speak).
    2.) Pham is set as long as his eyes stay adjusted. He isn’t a free agent until 2022.
    3.) O’Neill will eventually be the third outfielder. He had 31 home runs, 95 RBI, and 14 Stolen bases
    at AAA this year (in 5 months) as a 21/22 year old. The Cardinals won’t want to block him with a long term contract given to an outsider.


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    I want Pham, Fowler, and Grichuk as my starters. Bader and Martinez on the bench.

    My logic: until we get another big bat Grichuk is our best source of power. Even if there is only a 20% chance he’ll come close to his potential, you roll the dice until you get a replacement MOTO bat. Once you get that, Grichuk is expendable.

    I keep Martinez as he seems the perfect 4th outfielder. He can hit, he is a proficient PH. He can fill in a 1B when needed (and for the Cards that means he can fill in at 3b and 2b too since Carpenter can be moved over).

    Bader can provide speed, defense, occassional power. Let him have a year as a bench player to see if he is ready to step in as a starter in 2019.

    I also try to hold on to O’Neill (another power bat option) and Sierra (due to ++ defense).

    Those are my preferences but none of them are untouchable for the right deal.



    I don’t want Grichuk anywhere near a starter he is not that good need to trade him.



    Here is what I do.

    1. Release grichuk immediately

    2. Give away fowler eating as much as necessary. What a waste.

    3. Put pham in center if we feel his eyes are solid. Trade him otherwise. His value is likely maxed out

    4. IF we keep pham, deal bader for a big bat. If we deal pham, put bader in center with someone else (sierra?) As a lh/rh platoon. Bader should hit lefties like he did in the minors (well north of 1.000 ops).

    5. Trade carpenter

    6. Have piscotty learn first. He can play part time at first, left and right with say… Hosmer at first.

    7. Sign hosmer

    8. Call up Tyler O’Neill and give him a shot in left (yes left). Between him and piscotty we should be ok.

    9. Trade the moon for stanton using carpenter, pham, and fowler trades as fuel if we get anything good. We should for pham and carpenter.

    The end.


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    1.Get Fowler out of STlouis-Younger ,cheaper options in the system.
    2.Trade Piscotty-he might walk more than Grichuk but Grichuk is a bigger threat to be a gamechanger .RG can be a solid 4th OF if need be.
    3.Jose Martinez is a fine bat that has DH written all over him.See if someone is interested.
    4.Check out Pham`s trade value while it is high.If you get a reasonable offer then take it.A repeat season is unlikely.Sell while value is highest.
    5.A OF of Pham (if not traded)Bader,Grichuk,O`Neill and Sierra in STlouis with Jose Adolis Garcia and Martini in AAA getting more experience.


    My two cents… ’18 OF should be Grichuk-Sierra-Piscotty. Piscotty’s ’17 should be erased because of numerous personal and physical troubles. He’ll be back in ’18. Sierra offers better defense, speed and is a great situational hitter, a great fit. Grichuk has yet to show off his higher BA, no one can doubt the power side and a trip to Pham’s eye Dr. would help. An ’18 breakout is what I’m looking for.

    Trade away Fowler at any cost.

    Pham is a tough call but get his highest value now

    Martinez has shown promise. Good OF/1B type.

    Bader needs more seasoning and maturing. I didn’t like him seemingly pouting on his return to AAA where he didn’t do very well at all. (.222 in Aug.)

    O’Neill could be the guy to step up in ’18. A good power bat.

    JAGarcia was sent back to AA. This happened to Bader in ’16. Going backwards is a red flag for me.

    Martini, although I love his style of play, is AAAA at best.

    Mercado and Arozarena both need one more solid year. Both have MLB starter potential.

    The cupboard is bare at AA-adv and Low-A, except for Carlson, who will be only 19 next month. He got off to a terrible start but was progressing in the second half. A very high prospect for us. Watch him move quickly because of the void ahead of him.

    At the short-season teams we have Hurst, Pinder, Ynfante and Machado who all had progressive seasons and all should be considered solid prospects. There’s also a kid named Andres Luna who showed a lot of promise.



    Grichuk? Sierra? Piscotty? Seriously?

    One guy is a .230 hitter that strikes out a million times.
    The other guy is obviously not ready for big league pitching.
    The other guy has one full season where he only hit .271. Fair, but nothing great.

    And you want that to be our outfield in 2018? That would equate to about a 70 win season.

    As I’ve said for quite awhile now, there is only one – ONE – untouchable on this team. And his name is Alex Reyes. Everyone else, including Molina, is available for the right price.

    Everybody – FS1 announcers, posters here, FSMW announcers, etc – all say the same thing. That the #1 need for the Cardinals in 2018 is a big bat in the lineup. Whether that ends up being Stanton, JD Martinez, or Donaldson remains to be seen. But an outfield of Grichuk, Sierra, and Piscotty makes us even worse than we have been.



    Rats…. my opinion is still worth 2 cents. Put an opinion up here so I can critique it. (and don’t include any ridiculous trades).



    Piscotty is as good as gone.



    You might be right. And I hope Grichuk goes with him. In my mind Jose Martinez deserves to be the 4th outfield and backup 1stbaseman. Geez, the guy hits everywhere he goes, just about every year. What does he have to do???

    I don’t think you are far off about Sierra. I just don’t see him as a starter. Maybe a 5th outfielder but that would limit his atbats. He needs to show he can hit in Memphis before he is in St. Louis full time.

    As far as trades……Whatever it takes to get Stanton is pretty much fine with me. Just as long Alex Reyes remains a Cardinal. He is our lone untouchable.




    I expect Grichuk, Piscotty, and Carpenter to be with other organizations next year.


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    I would trade these players
    Fowler-other younger cheaper options available.
    Pham-if I can get good value in return.
    Piscotty-send him to West Coast for bullpen arm or a young prospect.
    Carpenter- if this is going to rework /rebuild/rework then get younger.
    Wong- he can’t stay on the field enough .
    Carlos Martinez-if you can get good value for him.
    Tuivailala- a lively arm who MM apparently doesn’t use enough
    Greg Garcia,Mike Mayer’s,Valera,Wick,Bowman all can be complimentary parts in package trades.



    Sorry, but only a few guys are going to be gone. Bank on Wong, DeJong, Gyorko, Pham, Fowler, Martinez, etc. to be here.



    Pham – keep him for 2018 as CF. Trade him after 2018.
    Fowler – move to LF or trade, if we can get a difference making bat. Definitely trade after 2018.
    Piscotty – trade for a big bat. OK to keep if we upgrade elsewhere.
    Grichuk – trade. Strikes out too much to be a difference maker.
    Martinez – look to move him to an AL club or have him start less. He is a detriment as a fielder.
    Bader – make him the 4th or 5th OF. Include him in trade for upgrade to offense, if necessary.
    Sierra – start him in AAA. Look for him to be in St. Louis in 2019.
    Martini – don’t see him having a spot in St. Louis (maybe 5th OF if we need to trade enough others)
    JA Garcia – start him in AAA. Look for him to be in St. Louis in 2019.
    O’Neill – start him in AAA. Look for him to be in St. Louis in 2019. Protect him on 40-man.
    A Garcia – don’t see him having a spot in St. Louis
    Mercado – start him in AA. Needs to show end of year was due to injury before moving up. Protect him on 40-man.
    Arozarena – start him AA. Needs more seasoning. St. Louis in 2020.

    There are no untouchables for the right price.

    Gone: Grichuk
    Trade 1 of Piscotty, Fowler, Martinez for an offensive upgrade.
    The youngsters to try to keep are O’Neill, JA Garcia and Aronzarena.


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    Counting on Carpenter,Fowler,Pham to repeat or rebound in 2018 in beyond dumb IMO.Carlos Martinez will always be a teaser who flashes great talent but pitches like he has a 10 cents brain. Wong is the same way…flashes great talent then boots a simple ground ball and then can’t stay on the field.I just don’t want to see a half hearted effort a fixing the team.Counting on 30 plus year old guys with injury problems is just asking for a repeat of this year.There is no guarantee going younger will work but hoping injured veterans on the decline won’t win anything.



    I think Pham CAN repeat 2017. He did it in the minors. Well, maybe not the same as 2017 but I would expect around .850 OPS. Carpenter should rebound SOME with his shoulder being healthy. Fowler, I have mixed feelings on. I could see him having a rough 2018.

    However, all that doesn’t change the fact that the team needs to make some major changes.



    I am all in on Hosmer.


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    he isnt really an OF LArry…but i agree i like Hosmer too

    what does everyone think MErcado’s ETA is and how he fits in….i am very intrigued by his step forward this year…



    I expect Grichuk, Piscotty, and Carpenter to be with other organizations next year.

    bcran- will believe that only when i SEE it happening…knowing the cards not much will happen


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    The OF I would like to see would be:

    LF Pham
    CF Sierra, Bader, Grichuk (platoon)
    RF JD Martinez or Cargo or Bruce

    Fowler and Piscotty should be dealt.


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    I think Bruce is an under the radar possibility as he may come cheaper than the big names yet still might give similar numbers


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    Jay Bruce could be the LH power bat needed.His 2017 season.
    AB 555
    H. 141
    2B 29
    3B. 2
    HR 36
    RBI 101
    BA. .254
    OBP .324
    SlG .508
    OPS .832
    BB. 57
    K. 139
    Age 30
    DOB 4/3/87
    2017 salary 13.0 million


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    Bruce combined with a hosmer or Donaldson like player would do the trick..

    i only worry with Bruce because he is super streaky…having watched him for years in Cincy i know what his ugly ABs look like, and they look a lot like Grichuk but from the left side…

    i dunno…Donaldson and Bruce would be an upgrade but both have red flags



    Grcihuk’s hard numbers look really underwhelming for another go-around.

    2016 – .240 BA, .289 OBP, 24 HRs
    2017 – .238 BA, .285 OBP, 22 HRs

    There was zero change in his BB% (5.9 to 5.9) and almost zero change in his K% (29.5 to 30.1)

    Moving to RF and LF eroded all of his defensive value for a player like this even if he moved to being above-average at those spots.

    Piscotty improved his BB% quite a bit, but really saw his slugging tank. His BABIP cratered too, leading to his poor season.

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