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We don’t have agreement on whether the Cards have too much, too little or the wrong use of analytics
I think that is pretty much the heart of the issue. I try not to be obnoxious with my position. I like to drop by and chat with fellow Cardinal fans without putting off half of them. I’m not an expert at anylitics and metrics. I know enough to search and study before I mouth off about something. (Usually)
My position is that unless you have the deep pockets of the east coast west coast boys, you better get your organization deeply entrenched in metrics and anylitics with player development all the way up. And you have to be ready to have a couple down seasons from time to time. Without wasting resources trying to fix them.
That’s where the Cardinals have failed. They have this hybrid way of doing things. I understand it. They want to be a anylitics driven team, but they don’t want to suffer the downswing at the turnstiles. Who wants to watch bad baseball? So they have a choice: either be willing to suffer thru the rebuilds, or raise payroll significantly. I love watching young players develope, so I’m OK with the rebuild. Your average fan maybe not so much.
Either way, I’ve been supportive of Mo on most things until the last couple of years. It’s time to bring in fresh people who are completely indoctrinated into an anylitics driven system. Mo did great things for the Cardinals, and it’s sad to see him constantly having to defend the decisions that are clearly payroll driven, decisions that are made to increase attendance instead of improve the product.I know Carlson has looked horrible. I could obviously be wrong, But I think we need to roll him out there and let him get right. It’s possible, even likely, he comes around. It’s not possible or likely for Siani to do anything but play aaa or be a 4th outfielder as soon as someone gets healthy or Scott developes.
Brian-I will answer that as if I was the author. We don’t know any of these people. We don’t know any of the people we chat with in these rooms. We form opinions without really knowing them. Mo might be the most humble, welcoming guy you could ever meet in person. But his intreactions with the media leave you with a condescending, arrogant feel. I get why someone would think, without knowing him,that he would consider himself an expert at something that maybe he isn’t really any good at.
, I think Mo imagined himself an analytics whiz,
See how different that looks when it’s not quoted out of context.
Well, I’ve come to the conclusion that I’d take Scott Rolen over Arenado and Albert Pujols trumps any RH’ed hitter I’ve ever seen play baseball
110% On both counts
Pujols bombing in Anaheim wasn’t just a disaster for the Angels. It convinced people that Mo and Bill knew what they were doing. They don’t. They were simply lucky.
We used to beat those teams with our Sunday lineup. In all fairness, how good would those Cardinal teams have been with Goldy and Arenado the way they’ve deteriorated instead of Albert and Rolen?
STL-Im not stubborn-whatever works. Your plan is fine I would get behind it. I wasn’t clear whether you picked up the options on Lynn and Gipson and tried to move Matz and Mikolas. Whatever we do, we know injuries happen. We can’t wind up with Carpenter and Crawford at dh and Pallante trying to start like we have this year. We have to upgrade the roster. I’m just not sure Bill has the stomach for that and paying upgraded pitching. Even with the Goldy and Arenado $ gone. They always seem to find a way to convince us that payroll has actually gone up.
All three of those guys were traded for major league help, and in season (except Drew). Maybe I’m missing something, but I presume you’re looking for trading these guys for prospects? Trading 45-50 grade, cost controlled pros for 45-50 grade prospects rarely nets you a better team in the long run.
You are getting things mixed up. YES I would trade them for prospects, with no expectation of being better now. But that’s not how we roll. We are going to flounder around at 500 than dumpster dive at the trade deadline. If you REALLY want to get better, you need a 5th starter and an outfielder. Now. Not 2 months from now. You can trade for those avg type of guys with what you have. But they aren’t going to be young cost controlled players. So we won’t do that. How would you fix the Cardinals?
You are right Stl. None of them are Brett Wallace Colby Rasmus JD Drew, all of whom we traded. We don’t have the nerve for that sort of thing now. Or the leadership team to be trusted to make those deals
Bling-You are probably right. I’m a proponent of sell and rebuild. But I’m just playing the game here. I’m tired of the way they go about it. Wait until the deadline than grab the low lying fruit. If someone has a need for Noot Carlson Tommy Herrera Donovan move them. We over rate all of them for one reason or another.
I guess this post really belongs with what’s it going to take to fix the Cardinals, but this talk about trading Atenado is moot. Not going to happen. Move on. If we were serious about winning this season, we would trade for an outfield bat and a 4/5 starter. Now. You have to be willing to trade something of value. Arenado and Goldy have no value. For the right deal everybody is on the table besides Winn Gorman Walker. I probably wouldn’t trade Burleson right now either.But only because we need the bat.
It’s pretty natural to be frustrated with a player who is taking up a huge chunk of payroll and isn’t producing. Fans do what fans do. Vent.
I will stick to the topic. It was time to move him last year. Now he has negative value. It would cost us to move on from him. Bill doesn’t do losses. See Matt Carpenters last 2 years.
Actually the ancient starting pitchers aren’t the problem so far, although they have plenty of time to break down. This is the worst bench I’ve ever seen. The front office had no plan for the predictable loss of one or more of our starting pitchers. Hoping guys who have never had success starting will step in isn’t a plan. How is any of that Olis fault? It’s not. But he’s horrible and costs us games weekly. He can’t be fired soon enough. With all that said, we have some young talent that I really enjoy watching play. Unfortunately, none of it is starting pitching. It’s going to be like getting teeth pulled waiting for Mo and company to move on. I’m appreciative of the good years but it’s past time for new blood. Hopefully it doesn’t drag on another year past this one. I believe with the right moves we can still win with this young core group. But they’ve clearly already wasted all the value any of these oldies might have had.
RBK I used to say I never wanted Burleson on the field with a glove. Unfortunately we’ve had to play him extensively in the outfield. Inversely, I never want to see Siani do anything but bunt and play defense. But again, he’s been forced into regular action. I don’t see a pathway for Siani to be a regular after our our guys get healthy. What does Burleson have to do going forward to be the everyday dh? For me his 299/429/720 isn’t good enough. I want to see 340/470/780 ish. That’s reasonable for a one tool player. For reference Contreras lifetime is 352/464/816. That puts Burly on the bench with Herrera catching against left handed pitching. So for me he has to get near Contreras numbers to justify his defense in left field. What do you think?
Shady don’t push your luck. Burleson was a LOT more highly regarded than those 2 guys. He destroyed aaa pitching.
Brian, I’m aware of what you are saying, for now. But sometimes you have to project ahead. Like I did with Burleson. Oli lights up when asked about Burleson as a hitter. I could see that scenario with Saggese maybe sooner than later.
Shady you didn’t discover Burleson. Sorry to burst your bubble.
Brian-lets live in a make believe world. Tommy and Noot are healthy. Goldy and Arenado are gone. You are right about Saggesse. Shady just likes saying his name. So you have Gorman and Burleson on the corners with Walker and Donovan as the corner outfielders. Noot cf. Tommy at second and Winn ss. Contreras and Herrera share dh and catcher. Wait for it. Bill reinvest in two #2ish starting pitchers and deals with having to offload Matz/Mikolas/ contracts. So that leaves you with Gray Gipson new #2 new#2 LL. Assuming health that’s a team that is significantly better than our current version with Goldy and Arenado playing at their present levels.