What’s it gonna take to fix the Cardinals

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  • #223245
    ZTR
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    and can it happen in time for 2024? I’m writing 2023 off.

    #223261
    blingboy
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    This season average attendance at Busch is 39,900, second in MLB behind only the Dodgers. Ahead of the Yankees even. BDW is smart enough to know if it ain’t broke don’t fix it, and the money gusher is definitely not broke. All they have to do is break even for a couple weeks and the local media will be gushing about how they’re righting the ship.

    #223263
    1toughdominican
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    Most of those tickets were sold before the season began. I’m reasonably certain that’s how they calculate the gate. Viewing any telecast in the last few weeks clearly displays diminished clicks of the turnstiles.

    #223272
    1982 willie
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    I think lots of things can and should be done but I doubt this season can be salvaged. The unfortunate thing is we are in a bad division so hope doesn’t ever really feel too far away for management anyway. Right now i think we would have to really stink it up, get maybe 20 wins below 500 for management to really get serious and do what’s necessary. I think we have too much offensive talent and just enough good pitching for that to happen so here we are. Our pitching is just not good consistently. Sure we have our offensive issues at times but that happens. Our focus should be about getting better in the pitching area long term not a few months rentals.

    #223273
    blingboy
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    Maybe that’s why they are really hawking the cheap ticket promos. The $60 all inclusive is tempting. I can pack away a lot of chow with proper motivation. Regular seats for $6 I think it is. Of course, parking is $20 or more. Don’t know what a dog and beer is now. I think they offer financing for the everything nachos and drink combo.

    #223275
    Nathan Leopold Jr.
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    The Cardinals will still win this terrible division then lose in the first round again.

    They’ll draw 3.3 and Junior will be happy.

    Nothing of significance will be done in the off-season.

    Status Quo maintained.

    #223276
    TexasCard
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    Philadelphia fired Joe Girardi on 3 June 2022 with a 22-29 record. They were 21-29 at their worst. After this week, St. Louis had a similar record a couple of days ago. I’m not sure this group would have a similar turnaround because I think Philadelphia had better starting pitching than the Cardinals do. But there is an argument that can be made to make a managerial change now.

    #223280
    gscottar
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    What should be done? Well I could probably write about five pages worth of words on that but I won’t.

    1. For 2023 I would replace the manager to try to give the team a jolt even though this mess isn’t all his fault.

    2. I would trade most of our players who are on expiring contracts like Monty, Flaherty, and DeJong. I would trade O’Neill also since I don’t think he can stay on the field. Probably wouldn’t get much back but maybe some decent prospect pieces.

    3. I would trade away players who can’t play defense, specifically Yepez and Burleson. I would probably keep Walker though.

    4. In the off-season I would clean out the front office and bring in a new staff who believes in a more balanced approach of analytics and old school.

    5. I would trade for or sign at least two front of the rotation starters. This is a must.

    6. My new manager in 2024 would either be Skip Schumaker if we can get him to leave Miami or go after a veteran like Joe Girardi.

    7. I would bump payroll up to at least $200 Million which shouldn’t be a problem for an organization who is usually second in attendance. This fantasy of us being a small market or even mid market team is just that, a fantasy.

    Now most of that will never happen. What will the Cardinals really do.

    1. They might replace Marmol with McEwing or Stubby at the all star break but it would not surprise me if they didn’t.

    2. Mo will cobble together a couple of trades for middle of the rotation or back end starters like he has the last two years.

    Whether that is enough to win this weak division I don’t know but I don’t see this organization making huge changes. That isn’t their style. They are too conservative.

    #223281
    1toughdominican
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    And I can’t recall, TexCard, but I don’t think everyone had the Phillies favored to win the NLE in ’22. Futhermore, when Girardi was fired, the Phillies were in 3rd place in the NLE and not dead last. Moreover, in my view, the only point of argument would be that a Cardinal managerial change should have occurred weeks ago. The longer it takes to part ways with him, the worse his bosses are going to look in the eyes of the fan base.

    #223282
    1toughdominican
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    And as for the question posed in this thread. The single solitary answer is to win some games.

    #223284
    1toughdominican
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    I’d guess there’s a decent chance of 1, 2 and 3 becoming a realty and 7’s possible.

    #223285
    858booyah
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    Clearly if you want to send a message that you care and want to save the season then firing the manager would be the easiest thing to do. It would also mean admitting that you made a mistake in who you decided to lead your team in the dugout after less than 2 seasons. How much I want to believe it would be the correct thing to do. I just can’t see Bowtie admitting to that mistake unless he was forced.

    However you can’t deny the pitching has up and down. The bullpen has been hot and cold with some players. The rotation hasn’t had enough quality starts and the team just hasn’t performed well out of the gate in series and clearly hasn’t won enough of them. The sense of urgency just doesn’t seem to be there. The defense I mean you’ve got a gold glover and 2 other really solid defensive outfielders out. So you’re having to play guys out of position. So yeah that will hurt things a tad on defense.

    I mean who could you trade to make a difference? Not much because what you have is injured and hasn’t performed at the plate the last year and some change. Clearly Carlson is not going to be anything but average at the plate and it doesn’t help thing that Arenado and Contreras have been not up to standard on offense. It’s really is a recipe for mediocrity.

    My guess is if this continues that Marmol will figure out a way to get fired eventually if this keeps up but I could see a coach getting the ax or some exec who doesn’t do much getting culled before that. Right now the team needs to start series off well again, the pitching just needs to get more quality starts (6 innings), back end pen needs to be consistent especially in close games, need to get some underperforming guys going and some guys back off the DL. As I’ve always said when you have a giant ish shingle like that. If you need that much to go right then likely it doesn’t bode well for your season. Right now just getting some guys back off the injured list and some sort of pitching consistently with either the rotation or pen is likely the best case and maybe you can get around a couple game under .500 by the break. Keep it simple!

    #223290
    blingboy
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    The Cardinals might have missed their chance to make big upgrades via trade. They probably could have landed Murphy and a #1-2 type starter last winter if they had been willing to trade what trade partners wanted. The value of those pieces has now gone down and probably will go down more.

    I think Walker’s value has plummeted like his RoY odds, which went off a cliff. It could go up if he takes off, but he has to take off. To me, he looks like the same hitter we saw earlier. An approach and swing optimized to crush Texas League pitching mistakes. Prove me wrong. Winn’s also, but had less loft to fall from. Slick fielding shortstops are not too uncommon. Combining that with an impact level bat is the draw. Not happening. If it starts happening we can talk. Carlson, less value than what Bader had, and he got us a year and a half of Monty. Burleson and Yepez, virtually no value. Gorman’s value has probably spiked after the hot start. He is cratering at the moment, so we will have to see what happens there. Edman and Donovan are worth as much as a UT is ever going to be worth. Not a top starter. Graceffo, nope. Another bum shoulder guy who was promising before he was a bum shoulder guy. Dime a dozen. McGreevey, some value, but everybody has a McGreevy level guy coming up. Everybody has seen plenty of Liby, and they don’t wear hype colored glasses like we do. Herrera not setting the world on fire. Hence too far away to be the centerpiece of a major deal. Nobody trades an Arozarena for a guy in A ball, that would be absurd.

    So I don’t think we can do what needs to be done by way of trades, in season or this winter. If meaningful upgrade is going to happen, it will be in the FA market. That would mean Junior writing big checks. That would mean Junior trusting Mo to make bigger than Contreras signings.

    #223294
    Ratsbuddy
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    In other words…….so many of the things that we were hoping for have not come to fruition. As a result, 25-35 and freefalling.

    #223300
    blingboy
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    My take on Herrera above should have mentioned that he came on strong in May, and could improve his trade value if he keeps it up. Not to mention maybe getting back in the picture in St. Louis what with Knizner making arb money now which causes Junior actual physical pain and bleeding from his pores.

    #223366
    Cards667
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    I’d get rid of any expiring contracts ASAP and maximize return.
    -Montgomery and Stratton – should yield a pretty good prospect return. Many real contenders could have a need for a SP and RP. Baltimore makes sense to me, along with some others, but Baltimore catches me as a good fit for these 2.
    -Hicks and VerHagen- Texas is definitely a team that comes to mind that is good, but needs pen help. Maybe these 2 can be impressive getting swept in Texas the next 3 days and they want to acquire them.
    – Flaherty – again many contenders look for SP and shouldn’t be hard to find a taker. Arizona?
    -O’Neill – hopefully he can get back on the filed and be tradable before the deadline. His time in STL needs to be over.
    -Edman and DeJong – I’d try to move DeJong before the deadline, and while I love Edman and his versatility, the return could be high enough I’d move him. The Dodgers middle infield had been weak and they have some good prospects. It would have to make sense, but if the return was high enough I’d sure do it.
    – Herrera??? – I’m not sure what to do with him. Contreras is signed and going to play, but Herrera is having a nice season in AAA.

    1. Nootbaar RF (L)
    2. Goldschmidt 1B (R)
    3. Gorman 2B (L)
    4. Arenado 3B (R)
    5. Donovan LF/UT (L)
    6. Contreras C (R)
    7. Walker DH/LF (R)
    8. Carlson CF (S)
    9. Winn SS (R)

    IF? (Motter? Querecuto?), Burleson DH/1B/LF/RF (L), Yepez DH/1B/LF/RF (R), Knizner C (R)
    *Maybe Baker over Yepez or Burleson. Donovan and Walker splitting time in LF and Donovan moving all over the place.

    Mikolas, Wainwright, Liberatore(L), Hudson/Woodford, Matz/Thompson(L)

    Woodford/Hudson/Naile, Thompson/Matz/Romero(L), Pallante, Walsh, Zuniga, Cabrera(L), Gallegos, Helsley

    – I know that pitching looks rough, but they are already the worst team in the NL. Acquire some good prospects, see what you’ve got, that offense going unto 2024 doesn’t look bad and focus on getting the pitching back to being contender level.

    #223367
    gscottar
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    Good post 667.

    #223368
    CardsFanInChiTown
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    If they want to be competitive in 2024, and have a realistic shot at moving on late into October they have to add two, not one, top notch starters. One via FA and one via a trade perhaps?

    As far as I’m concerned, the following players are moveable now or in the offseason:

    BATS
    O’neill
    Carlson
    Burleson
    DeJong
    Knizner
    Baker
    Gomez
    Yepez
    Baez

    PITCHERS
    Hudson
    Tink H
    Hjerpe
    McGreevy
    Paniagua
    Matz (pay 50-75%?)

    And many more down the prospect ranks, but I’d think a package of those could bring back a decent SP in the offseason.

    #223369
    jj-cf-stl
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    Good post 667. I want us to be sellers at the deadline also.

    What concerns me most is Mo being a desperate buyer at the deadline to save face for the org. The risk of long term harm to the roster, for short term gain can be avoided, but I feel trouble brewing. They tried too hard with Contreras, as I said at the time of his signing, and it’s setting up well for another round of disappointment.

    Agree on all your pitchers mentioned, but it’s the middle infield where I seem to differ with the forum members. PDJ needs to go, Edman is my SS for two more seasons, creating a bridge to Winn and his mentor.
    Gorman at 2B leaves Donovan as our best trade chip, because I’m not willing to deal Nootbaar. I’ve got some leash left for Carlson and Walker stays making the three outfielders.
    Catcher has depth so I’d expect one of Kiz or Herrera to be on the block.

    The OP asked what would take to fix the Cardinals. We have to add significant pitching. Bill will have to come out of his comfort zone and buy pitching.

    #223370
    CardsFanInChiTown
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    As for 2023, just to sneak into the playoffs, addition and subtraction seems like an intelligent plan to set up 2024. I would like to see Chapman in the pen, but that will likely be not in Mo’s plan for a last place team.

    #223372
    1toughdominican
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    The current Redbird executives don’t retain the foresight to keep Eddie for 2 more seasons and he’s the guy that quite a few other teams would possibly offer up something of worth. Consequently, I believe the Cardinals are more than willing to part with him. I’m convinced that many team managers and baseball executives around the entire league would love to have him as a valuable piece in their Big League roster. Other than that, I’ll never understand how Brendan Donovan could be considered a possiblity as a fit in the 5 slot of any line-up.

    #223373
    Ratsbuddy
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    We won’t know if we are buyers or sellers until the latter part of July. That’s about 55-60 games from now. If we are still floundering we will probably be sellers but don’t expect the core to be traded. Goldy, Arenado, Norman, etc, they won’t be going anywhere.

    #223375
    1toughdominican
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    Obviously the Cardinals need a couple of top-shelf SP’ers, but ask yourself if this or any other Cardinal ownership in your entire lifetime has ever added an already established top-flight SP’er by means of the FA market. Going back over 4 decades, Joaquin Andujar, John Tudor, Chris Carpenter, Adam Wainwright and even Miles Mikolas were all obtained as either career and injury related resurrection projects or unknowns. I don’t expect that approach to change in my lifetime.

    #223378
    gscottar
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    jj wrote:

    What concerns me most is Mo being a desperate buyer at the deadline to save face for the org. The risk of long term harm to the roster, for short term gain can be avoided, but I feel trouble brewing

    I would say there is a 90% chance of this happening. Saving face is important to the brass.

    #223390
    Cards667
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    Thanks, thinking about it more, I probably hold onto Herrera through the season and in the off-season package Herrera and Burlson or Yepez together, with more, for a SP. But, if they could put Herrera and Burleson/Yepez in package for a SP along with being able to make other trades for pitching, because they built up the prospects with the other trades or being able to play those prospects, and sign pitching and I think the 2024 team could immediately be good and not a rebuild at all.
    -Starting line-up all returns
    -Bench could be: UT?, Yepez/Burleson, OF?, Knizner

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