Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Heyward’s numbers still not anywhere near where they were in ’15. Unfortunately Martinez’commamd is poor, and is inviting the Cubs back in.
Edmonds said Gyorko did everything right on that play, but just did not have the ability to finish due to the hamstring issue. He said Gyorko should have held, and when the coaches questioned him he could have told them he did not think he could make third with the compromised hammy.
Man, we could have had a huge first inning. We got 3, but all three strike outs were on pitches that would have been ball four had the batters held up.
I don’t consider winning a division that big of a prize, although it certainly beats not winning it. It puts you in a good place to get to the World Series, which is the main goal.
Good question on whether or not the Cardinals have ever clinched anything in Chicago. Whether we have or not, we have many more pennants and World Championships than the Cubs.
That said though, they are getting some nice revenge these last three years. So far Jason Heyward was correct when he characterized our club as one on a downward trend, and the Cubs going upward.
We are getting to the place where we almost have to win out to get the right to play Arizona for a playoff spot. I would probably put us at about 4-5% on doing that and overcoming Colorado and Milwaukee.
Tough season. So many disappointments, and yet some nice contributions from guys we would not have expected.
I see the anthem as representing the nation’s principles and ideals. When you show respect, you are honoring the principles that the nation was founded upon.
Unfortunately we are a nation of people, and people are flawed. The protests seem to be aimed at society’s injustices, and not the nation’s principles. In that way, there is a disconnect between where these protests are focused, and where they should be focused. What needs to happen is for these high profile members of society to get into their communities, and be a conduit to conversations between the community and those in power in order to make the positive changes that are needed. That would be a far more powerful course of action than simply taking a knee at a sporting event.
On a national level, I would like more efforts made at finding common ground and less at fanning the flames of discontent. In reading about the Detroit riots of 1967, members of the Detroit Tigers did just that. Willie Horton went out into the streets in his Tigers uniform and called for calm, and urged people to go home and to stop destroying their city.
On a personal level, I would never be in any position to protest the anthem, having never been denied opportunities unless I created those barriers myself by being a knucklehead. I cannot speak for those who have been denied an opportunity based on something other than character and credentials. But if we look back on history someday, and these “taking a knee” demonstrations helped start effective communication, then maybe they are worthwhile.
Yeah, no way Miami makes that deal, and no way St. Louis takes on Stanton’s contract. If I could get Stanton for Flaherty, Piscotty and Grichuk, I cannot make that deal fast enough. But it would be tough to fit that contract into the budget.
At this point, living in the Denver area, I am fine with the Rox getting that last playoff spot if it’s not us. Our club has never gained the consistency required to get to the post season, and unless we suddenly turn it on this week and beat these good teams we won’t be going anywhere but home in October.
The Rockies are doing things right as an organization and are on a good trajectory, plus I think Bud Black is an excellent manager. A wild card spot would be a nice step for them, even if they go “one-and-done”, which is most likely what will happen.
We’ll see how the week plays out.
Mike has shown over the years that his late game managing is often questionable, and sometimes downright bad. When talking about bringing in a new guy, the real questions become:
1. Do Matheny’s other leadership qualities at least even out his propensity to often not give the team the best chance in games that are late and close?
2. All managers make mistakes similar to Matheny. For example, Maddon was horrible in last year’s World Series at times in how he used Chapman, but got away with it. Would another guy be consistently better than Matheny?
As I have said many times, I think Matheny has gotten better, and is not quite as “push button” with his bullpen as he once was. He still seems to struggle with analyzing the potential counter moves from the other team. Too often he seems to think only of the current batter-pitcher matchup, without taking in to account what might change in the next few match-ups as a result of his move.
It’s a tough call as the team is competitive, so you do not want to get too emotional when making a decision to stay with your manager, or make a change. If I am in the front office, once the Cardinals season end I take in a lot of opinions and advice from those around me and from contacts around the league, before making any decision on Matheny’s future. And if I do lean towards firing him, I have a good plan in place for replacing him. What ever you do as a decision maker, don’t go all “Gussie Busch” and have your course of action based primarily on emotion.
This one looks tough. On paper, we are over-matched in starting pitching. You just hope that Gant is enough of an unknown that the Bucs have trouble with him. It’s almost an “all hands on deck” game as far as pitching goes.
It is always tough to compare managers because of so many variables, as people have pointed out. You have different teams, different eras, different leagues, injuries, randomness, and many other factors. It is impossible to isolate factors down to one variable, and then compare results.
After posting some this morning, I went out on a bike ride and another Cardinal manager came in to my head that I left out of the earlier posts – Walter Johnson’s old catcher, Gabby Street. Street holds up well as Cardinal manager, with a .563 winning percentage in over 500 games of managing, including two pennants, with one a World Championship over a truly great team, the 1931 Philadelphia Athletics.
Without digging deeper, which should really be done for a true list, my top 10 Cardinal managers would be:
1. Southworth – far and away the best winning pct for a Cardinal manager; consistent great teams. After leaving St. Louis, he lead a mediocre Boston Braves team to their first pennant in 34 years. A no doubt HOF manager.
2. LaRussa – long tenure, with most of his clubs competitive
3. Herzog – may have gotten more out of what he had than any other Cardinal skipper
4. Schoendienst – a player’s manager who treated guys as professionals and let their talents do the talking; might be higher on the list had management not blundered with several horrible trades and personnel moves during his tenure
5. Keane – his intangibles might have been more important, and more impactful, than his on-field work. Gets great reviews as a manager by guys who played for him.
6. Frisch – fiery and a true leader
7. Dyer – all he did was win
8. Hornsby – took over the same club Branch Rickey managed, and immediately turned it around; won our first World title
9. Street – lead what I consider to be the third greatest Cardinal team of all-time, the 1931 club, to a championship, which came on the heels of a pennant the year before
10. Matheny – all he has done is win also, but not up to par with the others due to lack of a championship. Is trending downward, which happened to many of the guys listed above him and was one of the main reasons for their eventual dismissalDeJong definitely needs to learn the strike zone. Hopefully that comes with experience. Grichuk has not learned it, despite numerous big league ABs.
I like Martinez at first base. He’s brutal in the outfield; Chris Duncan-like. But he seems to handle first base quite well.
I think if the relative mediocrity that the Cardinals have fallen in to continues for another year or two, management will make a change.
Some of that could depend on who else is available. But right now I think Mike is living off his early success to some degree. His lack of tactical shrewdness, and issues with seemingly favoring certain players will make him expendable if his record does not over-shadow those deficiencies.
Still, as I said I think he getting better and this year has mostly played the guys who are playing better, rather than doing nonsensical things like moving his second-baseman to the outfield, and putting his closer in days in a row, with some motivation based on building the guy’s stats.
Some great names on that all-time list. If I am not mistaken, I think only Lopez and Matheny are without championships on that list. Al Lopez managed during the Yankee dominance, and was the only guy to break their spell between 1949 and 1964, doing it with two different teams.
Mike is still building his career, so we will see how it plays out. There is no argument he has won, so that alone makes him intriguing when gauging successful managers. But there are legitimate questions surrounding his strategic moves. That 2014 playoff series against the Giants was brutal. Mike played right into the hands of the Bochy and the Giants with his blunders.
Still, I think he has gotten better. I loved the double steal call last night. That aggressiveness in an important game was the kind of things good managers do – push the opponent and increase the chance of them making a mistake.
Good question. Answer is because all have World Championships and a longer tenure than Mike.
Obviously everyone will have their own criteria for rankings like this. When it comes to managers and teams all-time rankings, I put a fairly heavy weight on championships. Mike has the one pennant, so he has built a nice resume so far.
Just looking quick overall, I would probably put Eddie Dyer at 8 and Mike at 9, but would need to research guys like Miller Huggins and Fred Hutchinson a lot more to really say for sure. Dyer might even be under-rated at 8, as he had a .578 winning percentage for us in 5 seasons, and won a championship.
Neither Huggins nor Hutchinson won in St. Louis, but did well elsewhere and did not have the horses in St. Louis. Still, they probably would fall below Matheny in my list due to the 2013 pennant Matheny got us.
Bottom line, until you bring home the ring, you fall into the “Gene Mauch” group as “the best manager never to win it all”. At least that is how I view it.
Interesting. The one thing the Cards have going for them are those final seven home games against the two teams in front of them in the division.
This Pittsburgh series will be tough, as the Pirates have better pitching than Cincy. I don’t think we are going to score 8 runs a game this weekend.
Dang, was rooting for Milwaukee. That was a wild one, as the breaks went the Cubs way in the last couple of innings. Might be better for us that Chicago won, since realistically our chances at the WC are better than at the division title. But I don’t want the Cubs to win the division a second straight year.
Got one better than all of those, Cranny. The Rajah, .569 as Cardinal manager, including a World Series championship. Frank Frisch checks in at .564, and also has a World Series championship.
Or how about this guy, Johnny Keane, .560 and a World Championship. But then there is one guy who is out-of-sight. Billy Southworth, .641 with 3 pennants and two World Championships. Greatest era of Cardinal baseball ever.
Just for fun, my personal top five Cardinal managers of all time:
Billy Southworth
Tony LaRussa
Whitey Herzog
Johnny Keane
Red SchoendienstFrisch and Hornsby would be sixth and seventh, and you could almost put either guy in either spot. I would put Frisch sixth simply because he managed longer.
We might have a little clearer picture after this weekend, when the Cubs and Brewers finish up their four head-to-head match ups.
St. Louis is in an interesting spot, with the schedule having us at home for four against Chicago, and three against Milwaukee to wind things up. We most likely will impact the wild card, whether us playing to be there, or playing the spoiler role.
The key (obviously), is to keep winning and see what happens. After our game last night I switched over and watched the end of the Bucs/Brewers. Frazier cranked a walk-off to win it. Pittsburgh showed some heart, so they may be tough this weekend.
Although we won a see-saw contest last night, as long as Chicago and Milwaukee win there is nothing we can do to get back in the hunt.
We will no doubt talk a lot more about this after the season ends, but our season was sabotaged primarily due to the offense not performing as planned (or hoped), and the bullpen struggling, especially in the first half.
On offense, two guys stand out as the culprits. First, Matt Carpenter was not able to provide the pop needed of a number three hitter, and eventually lost his job in that role and moved back to lead off, where at least he got on base via the walk enough to justify hitting at that spot. Second, Steven Piscotty was a major disappointment, although Tommy Pham finally stayed healthy and showed what he can do, offsetting Picotty’s weak bat. Piscotty is not exactly a gazelle in the outfield either. In fact, Pham is better in all phases of the game.
In the bullpen, no one excelled at closer for a significant portion of the season, and the big off-season acquisition of Brett Cecil was major big disappointment. Anyone watching the Cardinals would much rather see Lyons or Sherriff in there at crunch time, than Cecil.
Anyway, we’ll have many words from many posters about this topic as Summer turns to Fall. As it looks right now, I would like to see the Cleveland Indians finish the job and win their first championship since 1948, which be only the third world title in their long history. If they end up playing the Dodgers in the Series, it will be the same two teams that battled when Cleveland won it’s first championship back in 1920.
A belated “Congratulations!” to the PCL champion Memphis Redbirds. Despite numerous call-ups of key players in order to try to get the big league club into the post season, the Baby Birds kept chugging.
I saw something where that team went an amazing 13-0 in extra inning games. Amazing. A very good year for the junior Cardinals, which takes a little sting out of the failures of the big boys.
Good point about Milwaukee, Brian. St. Louis not only has the Cubs to overcome, but the Brewers as well. Those 4.2% odds are probably about right.
Management will have it’s work cut out this off-season. Hopefully they move their thinking more over to the “winning” side of the spectrum, if you think of “cost control” on one end and “winning” on the other. To do that, they need to sign Lance Lynn, and explore opportunities to bring in an impact bat without gutting the farm.
You then set your club up with potentially a deep pitching staff, so that even if a deal cannot be struck for a bat before 2018, the opportunity to make a deal next year remains strong if the pitching depth is good. Plus the club’s strength would presumably be pitching, which almost guarantees at least a shot at success.
Most likely the season is done. Still we do have those 4 remaining head-to-head games against Chicago, so while we need some help, that is the one thing that gives us a faint hope. If it was a case of us and the Cubs being done playing each other, then it would be especially hard to overcome a 6 game deficit in 13. But since we still have those 4, we do have some control over our destiny.
Now if we continue to tank this week and go into that series still six or more back, it won’t mean a lot. We really need to keep it no worse than six, and preferably more like 4 back to even think there is hope. And even at that, you almost need to sweep the four to get into the thick of it, which is unlikely, but not unprecedented.
What we really need is the Cubs to be the second coming of the ’64 Phillies and lose their next 10, while we win about 8 in a row.
Not quite that simple, as we are not mathematically out even with a loss. Plus we still have those four home games against Chicago.
Still though, realistically the club has to win today to make a statement. They have never really shown the ability to quite keep up with the “big boys” the last two years, and this year most likely ends up the same way. But the games are decided on the field, not in words.
If Lynn goes out and dominates, we really need to get serious about bringing him back. One thing I hear is the club most likely will not show any interest in him because he will block a promising young pitcher. But really, bringing him back only “blocks” the 12th pitcher on the roster. It really comes down to whether or not the club feels Lynn will be worth the investment. The Cardinals get a little careless in that area, as they seem to always think they have a bountiful crop of young pitchers. We do have talent, but pitching is a fragile commodity.
And letting him walk risks his ending up in Chicago or Milwaukee, or with a club we will be contending with for the post season in the future.
I still love the pitcher W-L stat. There was always something special about the 20 game winner, which is pretty much a relic of the past. Two of my favorite standout W-L records are Carlton’s 1972 season of course, and another former Cardinal, Larry Jackson, who went 24-11 for a Cub team that finished 10 games below .500 in 1964.
The reason the pitcher’s won-loss statistic evolved in the first place was that the position is by far the most important one in the game, and has the most impact on a game’s outcome. In the early years of baseball, pitcher’s were expected to complete the game, and usually did, so the W-L really meant something.
Obviously pitching for a better team (better offense and defense that is) will usually help the W-L, and their are random events beyond a pitcher’s control that will impact the record. To accurately assess any player, one always needs to take in several statistics. Even as a kid looking at baseball cards, I could see that some pitchers were really better than others, even though the lesser guy won more games. In 1962 Whitey Ford had that glittering 25-4 record on his baseball card for the ’61 season, but as an 8 year old kid I would look at his numbers and see that he was only 12-9 the year before, with a similar ERA, even a bit lower in ’60, and knew that he was just as good in ’60 as ’61, but in ’61 everything came together.’
Today the W-L does not mean as much, because the pitcher of record gets more help from other pitchers than in the past. Rarely does the starter finish the game, but the rules still say he can get a win if his team is leading after 5 and maintains the lead. Today pitchers probably average what, 2-3 innings less per start than their ancestors? So in a sense we could say the W-L record has lost 25-30% of it’s meaning compared to prior generations.