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Onyx just let him be.. I see no reason for what he says to be false.
Bccran and I get after each other pretty hard sometimes but I havent seen anything that says liar. Fwiw.
Frankly… They’re a year late being disenchanted with carpenter at minimum. If you say you’re going to improve your defense … He is on the wrong side of thirty and not good enough offensively to make a difference at first. Yes he was solid… But solid doesn’t win world series. Difference makers do.
He was a difference maker at other positions despite bad defense. If you want to improve, you don’t start by shoving a square peg in a round hole. VERY simple math shows he should have been dealt if improving defense is the goal.
They killed adams value. They killed carps value. And they probably killed a few other things too — including the 2017 season.
… And dont get me started on fowler. Last year’s offseason was nauseating. We will be paying for it pretty much until fowler is shown the door…. And carpenter too at this point.
I think Fowler is fine, just not as a key core player. He’s fine in the lead off role. Our problem is that we have 2 leadoff hitters and no proven #3 hitter.
And we have no 4 hitter, it’s arguable if we have a 5 hitter so we pretty much are missing a competitive middle of the order.
When Jose Martinez is arguably your best #4 hitter, you don’t have much of a #4 hitter, do you?
If not Martinez, then it is likely Jedd Gyorko, a player many would prefer to see as a super sub rather than an every-day starter.
This is not a new problem. The opening day cleanup hitter was Jhonny Peralta, for crying out loud!
Fowlers problem is how many people we have in the pipeline and how much production he actually gives versus what we pay.
He has had one season above 3 War (i use baseball reference)… And we paid for it. He simply doesnt have the talent to perform as well as his contract much less outperform it. When you pay that much you want at least a shot at outperforming. He has none… He just isnt that good. Bad signing end of story.
He was a waste of money from day one. An extreme waste of money.
bccran: “We probably have fairly decent #5 hitters in Pham, DeJong, Carpenter, Gyorko, Fowler, and Martinez.”
Yadier Molina is this manager’s #5 hitter, not all of those other guys.
Brian,
If Stanton or JD Martinez or Donaldson end up as the #4 hitter then would you envision Molina or perhaps Gyorko as the #5 hitter?Lineup next year:
Carpenter
Pham
Fowler
Stanton
Molina
DeJong
Gyorko
WongI listed whom I think would be decent #5 hitters. It has nothing to do with our beleaguered manager.
BC, in the final 62 games, there were 28 games that Molina batted 5th and one of your decent #5 hitters hit lower in the order. There were only 3 games in the final 62 games that Molina batted lower than 5th.
So there is some question as to whether MM will hit one of those 6 players in the #5 spot and Molina lower in the order.
I am sure the Cardinals will try to make some changes, as they most likely think that tweaking and banking on some under-achievers to come back next year sends a bad message to the fan base. Time to try something different.
As for Adams, he was little bit like Pham. He was always a pretty good hitter with some pop, but had a lot of injury issues. I was never as high on him as Pham, because I like the athletic all-around player better than the more burly-type player, but Adams can hit when healthy.
I am okay with Fowler. He can be a good fit for this team, and provide leadership as long as there is enough around him to compete. He should probably play left field, but can still play center if needed. The issue with him in center though is you have two older, declining players at key defensive spots (catcher and centerfield). Most winning teams have strong core players in those spots, and the middle infield.
Fowler in left makes him a worse albatross.
He simply should be moved. Eat it and move on. He isnt getting any younger.
Edit for exposition : same problem carpenter had moving to first. Any positives he has are eliminated by putting him in left. He doesn’t hit enough end of story.
Making do the best you can is one thing. The problem this team has had on a macro scale is that is all they are doing… And fowlers contract stops them from getting difference makers.
Move on. Mistakes happen stop compounding them.
brian..so youre argument against keeping Fowler is that he is a waste of money for his on field play right?
how is eating all that money to send him away not an even WORSE waste of money, which is an assured way of “compounding” the problem
keeping him and playing him in whatever role he would have would bring a return for him that is greater than zero no matter what he does
i am not against moving him, but eating the money (which is huge money) for nothign back is ridiculous IMO, eating HALF his money and bringing back a decent prospect…maybe…eating all of it for nothing or most of it for nothing is just bias against the player because you dont like him
he performed well enough, i dont like him in CF anymore…i dont really want him as a #3 hitter, but he put up pretty good numbers outside of average, he got a little banged up but so did most of the team
who me how his numbers arent good enough… not for the money but for the performance…eating the money does nothing except give another team his performance for free…while we pay for his performance somewhere else….i dont see how that isnt a negative cost/value imapct
and if you think you can trade him for something without eating all the money then please explain who you think will take him and all that money on
This whole “eat the contract” is being blown way out of proportion. I bet we wouldn’t have to eat more than $5M per year to move Fowler. There are probably more teams than we imagine who would have some interest. Off the top of my head I am thinking of the Mets, Giants, Orioles, Blue Jays, and Rangers who would probably have some interest and probably others.
Simple.
By keeping him you compound your error and refuse to cut losses.
By getting rid of him you free money for actual difference makers.
By keeping him you block up to four minor leaguers who are just as talented. Yes they can be traded but you can keep them to get actual difference makers.
By getting rid of him you regain flexibility.
By keeping a mediocre highly paid player you are accepting mediocrity. Those players are NEVER paid money by good organizations that is what minor leaguers are supposed to fill. See : jacob ellsbury and the yankees doldrums.the last several years.
There isnt much to it which is why it is so obvious. Huge mistake from day one. Cut losses and move on.
Fowler was rated the 4th best position player available the last off season. You’re underrating him. He just needs to get healthy and stay healthy.
Whoever rated him that way was an idiot. I ripped that rating from day one and gave reasons and stats.
I am if anything being kind.
agreed BCC
also…as it seems pretty clear Fowler doesnt want to go anywhere this is all pretty moot right?…. i mean he has a no trade clause and has already publicly stated how he wants to build somethign in StL…
comparing to Leake makes sense had Leake spoke out about how much he loved stl and wanted to stay here like Fowler did…
get used to Fowler chances are he isnt going anywhere
and eating his contract is a big deal…you said you’d bet plenty of teams woudl take him for 5mil less per year….that means nothing until i hear people interested AND i hear Fowler saying he’d liek to get out
nevertheless, THIS thread is about Donaldson….not Fowler…let’s get it back on track
Fowler and Pham are here for a number of years, so the discussion I believe is about an outsider like Stanton under a multi-year contract vs. one of Martinez/Grichuk/Piscotty/Bader/O’Neill/Martini/Sierra/Adolis Garcia/Arozarena/etc.
From the Blue Jays GM:
•Lack of team speed “is a clear issue for us,” though one that Atkins admitted is “really hard to [address] in free agency” given that most of the available veterans are generally on the older side and lacking in quickness.
•Middle infield is an area of concern, as “we can’t rely that we will have an absolutely healthy Troy Tulowitzki and Devon Travis for the entire year, and we need to build depth around them.” Injuries limited Tulowitzki and Travis to just 116 games combined last year, and both players have exhibited a lack of durability over the last few seasons.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/blue-jays-hope-add-impact-arm-impact-bat-off-season/
Looks more like they would target Wong or DeJong in some sort of Donaldson trade.
Gotta get a kick out of someone saying “whoever rated Fowler the 4th best FA position player available over last winter is an idiot”.
SB Nation –
1 – Cespedes
2 – Turner
3 – Encarnacion
4 – FowlerMLB.com
1 – Turner
2 – Cespedes
3 – Encarnacion
4 – FowlerSporting News –
1 – Cespedes
2 – Encarnacion
3 – Fowler
4 – Desmond
5 – TurnerUSA Today –
1 – Encarnacion
2 – Cespedes
3 – Turner
4 – FowlerSure must be a lot of “idiots” out there.
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