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Rat, I noticed you failed to address past points about Rosenthal being a better pitcher than you give him credit for. If Sutter or Lee Smith were pitching for the Cardinals today, you would have a problem with them also. They weren’t as good as many people think they were.
bccran
Participant
MLB.com, Baseball America, Bleacher Report, TCN writers, etc.
So you are going to call out the TCN writers. One of them ranked Helsley higher than any other major ranking system out there and almost the highest overall. The other ranked him higher than almost all the major ranking systems and went into great detail as to why he ranked him that way.
As of this month, he is ranked #14 by the TCN writer you are specifically referring to. Based on your comments above, you would only have an issue with 1 pitcher who is ranked above him. I would say that is pretty close then.
If you still have a problem with his current ranking, I would be interested in seeing your top 20 prospect list.
bccran
Participant
He’s been overlooked now for several years by “those in the know”(supposedly). It doesn’t make much sense.
Who, exactly, are you calling “those in the know”?
After a poor night last night and throwing a bunch of pitches tonight, Cecil should have been out before Albies batted. The 2 previous hitters singled. Don’t risk making this a close game with a bunch of available relievers.
We HAVE to make a major trade this winter and thin out some of our logjam of OFs and Ps. Do a multiple prospect/MLB players for a major upgrade. Whether we upgrade a position in the majors or acquire a top 10 prospect or 2, it doesn’t really matter to me.
Garcia looks like a great signing.
bccran
Participant
Good managing again tonight.
Once again he leaves in a pitcher too long.
I guess your dig about his managing came a little too early.
Another minor point, Herzog was only in his 7th full season as a manager when he won the World Series. He took over the Cardinals in the middle of the season. He took over for the Royals in the middle of the season. He coached the Angels(?) For 4 games one season. When you look at his record, the 1981 season is usually listed on 2 separate lines. One is the first half before the strike. The other is the second half after the strike. If I were to list those 4 managers in order of how good I thought they were, I would list them: Herzog, LaRussa, Matheny and Torre. I think Torre is overrated.
bccran
Participant
I’m actually talking about me, Forsch. I’ve been strong in defense of MM and some people don’t like that.
They tend to jump on, and don’t want to engage in talking about Mike’s strengths and weaknesses. Or that Bill Dewitt has been acclaimed as one of the best owners in baseball, even with making moves like Heyward, Fowler, Cecil, and not securing a #3 or #4 hitter in the off season. Look at NJ’s post above. He’s just going to pack his bags and leaving.Brian likes to deal with facts. So do we.
1. Cardinal won-record under MM compared to
other Cardinal managers.
2.) Strength of teams (accumulated WAR) under various Cardinal managers and their records those years.
3.) TOtal WAR days lost to injury in 2016 compared to division rivals.
4.) Who the #3 and #4 hitters were going into 2017.I know you were talking about you. You talk like you are the only one being “slamed”. You did question my credentials.
NJ315 only asked you at least 3 times to explain how you have continually said that Matheny’s W/L record shows he is good but this year it is the players’ fault they are doing bad. Why the double standard?
DeWitt is a great owner and Mo has done a good job as GM. Even Matheny has done a good job as a manager, overall. However, he is not great. I want great. I think Francona would have been the better pick. I think Matheny should have been a manager somewhere else or a coach for a few years before being the Cardinal manager. I think it would have been best for him.
You are correct about the winning percentages. However, in his 2 best years, the Cardinals have performed other-worldly in one area or another. In 2013, they had the best BA with runners in scoring position since 1950 IN ALL THE MLB. In 2015, their pitching staff had a 2.94 ERA. I am sure that affected a few wins. He also inherited a much better team than any of the other 3 had inherited. Although, I will agree that the 2012 team was not as good as the 2011 team.
If Matheny’s actions caused us 2 losses last year, that cost us the postseason. 2 wins and we were in.
bccran
Participant
One poster has been slamed, Brian that I know of and that was for defending our home town manager too much. He got ganged up on. A poster called him a 4 year old. Pretty inappropraite, don’t you think? I’ve seen comments about MM for several years now that are uniview. People dwell on his weaknesses and don’t really care to acknowledge his strengths. Productive discussions weigh pluses and minuses. That goes for almost any type of discussion.
I wasn’t defending our home town manager and wasn’t ganged up on. However, I do recall someone questioning my credentials.
If the Cards trade Grichuk for Bruce I may need to fly to St Louis to find out what kind of nitwits are running this team. I would be calm at first…. “Speak softly and carry a big stick.” TR.
Why?
CC, I think I would pull the string on Grichuk for Bruce. I think Bruce provides enough to solidify the middle of the lineup. With our pitching, I think we could make a run at the Cubs and a strong run into the playoffs. I am convinced that Grichuk will never have the plate discipline to be a quality middle of the order hitter. Since coming back from his minors stint, Grichuk is striking out in 1/3 of his plate appearances.
Are you saying that players can’t adapt? Diaz hit well last year and overall in 2015. If he has adjusted and is hitting again, I would love to have him playing SS in St. Louis. Not every game, but most of them. DeJong can play SS, 3B and 2B. Maybe Diaz plays SS, 3B and 2B. It would be a nice problem to find playing time for several players that can play multiple positions well and hit well.
You don’t have to have played the game at a high level to understand it or look at a situation objectively. I will stand by my record on here as being an objective fan who looks at the good and the bad and usually gives the benefit of the doubt to the Cardinals.
I also agree with those who say that you can’t have it both ways. Either the players get the credit and blame when the team is playing good or bad or the manager gets the credit/blame when the team is playing good or bad. You can’t give the manager the credit when things are good but no blame when things are going bad.
How about you provide your credentials to say that we as fans should blindly accept everything he does. Are you a GM? Team president? Owner?
If you are going to question my opinions and try to belittle those opinions just because you don’t like them, please feel free to provide data to back your opinion. Even use won/loss record if you so desire. So far, that seems to be the only thing you can hang your opinion on. Just remember that his win % has decreased each of the past 3 years.
I think if you were to go back through my history here, you will see that I don’t hammer on some player or manager relentlessly for long periods of time. However, I will defend my opinion when questioned or defend someone that I feel is being unfairly targeted.
Diaz will be back. Wish the answer was simple. If he stays hot, do you give him his position back in St. Louis?
How about having both Diaz and DeJong on the left side of the IF going into the future? The D boys.I would be willing to bring Diaz back and playing Gyorko, DeJong, Diaz and Wong on rotating basis. Wong should get most of the playing time based on his season. The hot hitters play a little more. Use them in positions that maximize their chances to succeed.
BC, I have stated that I have supported Matheny for a long time. I think he has lost the clubhouse and doesn’t seem to think he makes bad decisions. He keeps plugging along with the same formula, win or lose. He obviously still thinks Fowler is a better CF (CF is the most important defensive OF position) than Pham. He is playing there again tonight on his first day back.
I am not so blinded that I only look at Matheny’s win/loss record or that he is a nice guy. I think there are better managers out there that the Cardinals could have. I want the best for the team.
I don’t care how many games Fowler has played in CF or that he was an all star in 2016. He is not anywhere as good in CF as Sierra or Pham. Gyorko had an extreme negative UZR/150 at SS and Garcia had a very slight negative going into UZR/150 going into 2016. Gyorko performed the same as his history in 2016 at SS while Garcia was in the positive in 2016. Yet, Matheny still played Gyorko at SS (a key defensive position) over Garcia. Why not put the personnel in the best position to make the TEAM successful.
It could very easily be argued that Matheny has overused Maness, Seigrist and Rosenthal over the years, just to name a few. The overuse usually came in the form of the roll the pitcher was normally used in. He would then just push the buttons.
Okay. You’re the manager, Forsch. You have the position players that MM has. How would you play them, and why would that make a difference? Please be specific and tie changes specifically to advanced performance you’re sure would result.
Just to give you a couple of areas that I think Matheny is poor.
1) Continued playing of lesser defensive players in key defensive positions. For example, he has played Fowler in CF while we were playing Sierra or Pham in a corner OF position. He has done this in the past by playing Carpenter at 2B and Wong in the OF. Or Gyorko at SS and Garcia at 3B.
2) Continuing to use relief pitchers in only certain situations and overusing them.Fowler is a disappointment in regards to OBP. He has done well for SLG. Diaz is only in his 2nd year and showed signs at the end of last year that the league had caught up to him. Piscotty supposedly changed his swing over the winter and that has not paid off. Grichuk was never able to lay off low sliders and has been a strikeout machine. That he is not doing well should not be surprising.
I have usually been on Matheny’s side regarding his managing. However, he has not learned from his mistakes and seems to be losing the clubhouse. The team would be better off finding another manager.
You are glossing over the fact that he has performed up to those high numbers in the last 1/2 of his minor league career. The first few years don’t matter to me as long as he can put up big numbers at the higher levels consistently over time. He did that.
His eyesight was the main reason for his early struggles and his early struggles in the majors. When his eyesight is good, he is great. He has showed that. It took him longer to get to here due to his eyesight and injuries.