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That’s great input, Mike. Thank you very much. It will be interesting to see how 2017 plays out.
Wonder if the last 3 games have been a fluke, or just the law of averages starting to catch up
on offense.Wonder if the last 3 games have been a fluke, or just the law of averages starting to catch up
on offense.I wonder that as well. Is this offense as bad as they have shown all season? They were expected to be better, but the regression of Piscotty and Diaz took some time to figure out, and then the batting orders have been all over the place.
Maybe we are seeing some true up to the mean. Sometimes teams just gel, and come together. Time will tell if this club is more like the team that struggles with the fundamentals and loses too many close ones, or is actually pretty good and is beginning to show that capability.
I’m with Bccran and ia applaud his standing up for his opinion on this one… people made up their minds a long time ago…some in this season some as soon as he was hired
crap there were TLR haters before during and after his WS victories
looking at defense we have progressed during the season
early on we were averaging .88 errors per game…now in August we are at .58 which puts us in a tie for 13th best overall at the moment
last year at this time we were at .66 at this time…2015 .59, 2014 .54, 2013 .46, 2012 .66, 2011 .7, 2010 .61
Looks like to me…he took over a pretty bad defensive group, then got them better…last year was worse than this year, and it leaked over into this year…but the team has righted itself and is starting to work it’s defensive issues out
(and yeah i am using errors to guide this because that is more often than not the only thing the fans get up in arms about so as to call out bad defense)
I just remember some Cardinal teams in the past that floundered
around much of the season, and then kicked it into high gear the last month or two. A finishing kick. We’ve had some players this year who have underperforme to their hitting, defense, and base running norms. Maybe it’s coming around. Sure hope so.I don’t consider myself to be a MM basher. I have stated repeatedly that he has proven that he can win with a good roster but to actually compare him to Herzog, Torre, and LaRussa is laughable at this point. MM needs to win at least one WS to get into that discussion.
But if you want facts, then let’s look at our regression over the last few years. Those are empirical facts, not feelings or hunches.
2013- World Series runner up
2014- NLDS
2015- NLCS
2016- No playoffs
2017- TBD but fairly good chance of no playoffsSo it looks like we have gotten worse over the last five years. Who is to blame for that? Some could argue the front office has become complacent, risk averse, and asleep at the wheel. Some could argue that the clubhouse culture that LaRussa created has eroded over time due to Matheny being a “player’s manager”.
It is probably a combination of the two. Personally I think the front office is more to blame. For years we were the big bullies of this division and could outspend or out maneuver our opponents due to our advantage in resources. The Reds, Brewers, and Pirates would rise up on occasion but didn’t and don’t have staying power due to their relative lack of resources and our front office knew that. Things completely changed the day the Cubs hired Theo Epstein. Now they have the brainpower in the front office to go along with the financial muscle they have always had. They are now the big bullies of the NL Central. I saw this coming the day Epstein was hired and hoped our organization would adapt and prepare for the onslaught but we didn’t and got passed up. We now have to fight our way back to the top.
As for Matheny, I still don’t view him as an elite manager but he is serviceable if given a good roster. I just hope that the next time we have a vacancy we hire a proven winner.
I like the posters who can look objectively at the strength of the teams (total WAR) and the injuries (total WAR days lost to injury) over the past years, under both Tony and MM and compare the results. That’s objectivity.
And as far as people within the organization, if someone (or ones) have been friends for a long time and have always been objective in their assessments (both positive and negative) over the past years, I have no reason to doubt them or question their bias.
This is a bottom line business. We can all conjure up certain statistics to reinforce our stubborn predispositions but the bottom line is that we are in a pattern of year end regression. A more fruitful use of time would be to determine why this is and how to reverse it.
Voit coming up and helping when ranked as the 47nd best Cardinal prospect.
DeJong coming up in his second full pro season, hitting 3rd, and playing an unfamiliar position well?
Jose Martinez, a career minor leaguer, hitting a grand slam, and now batting 4th in the lineup.You couldn’t make this stuff up. As one GM told me regarding the Cardinals – It’s pixie dust.
One thing that had escaped me is that the Cardinals have the best record in the Central since April 12th. We forget they started 3-9.
It’s mainly the players, but maybe MM should be given a little of the credit. Grichuk had to be sent down. Piscotty had to be sent down. Bader was sent down. Fowler was hurt. Wong was hurt. No proven
#3/#4 hitter. Etc.There are different ways to look at pretty much everything, including players being sent down. Some have suggested that with so many young hitters struggling and having to be sent back to the minors to work with a hitting guru there, one could look at the coaching staff as a possible factor.
Over time, certain hitters have seemed unwilling or unable to alter their approach. How much does one assign to the player and how much to those teaching him? No clear answer.
The real question is what MM was provided as far as a proven #3 and #4 hitter going into 2017, especially after what happened in 2016 (accented when Holliday went down). Especially compared to other teams expect to contend – Cubs, Dodgers, Nationals, Diamondbacks, etc.
True – but the main topic of discussion over the off season was a middle of the order bat. As I recall, Mo acknowledged that in his various interviews.
The main topic on this thread is the performance of the manager with the subquestion how much responsibility to assess him for the 2017 team’s underperformance. The latter line of discussion was seemingly driven primarily by your earlier contention that he deserved credit for prior regular season success but apparently not for the steady decline in the post-season or the current .500-ish record. Other posters have pointed to longer-standing issues with the manager’s performance than just 2017 and matters other than won-loss record.
Roster construction is certainly one factor for this year’s club. Again no clear answer, but the real answers to these many questions are neither zero nor 100 percent.
Personally, all I am advocating is to take a balanced view.
I have take a balanced view. Have ackledged he makes managerial mistakes. Just don’t know how many he makes compared to other manager’s.
On this thread Madden and Bochey
have been mentioned.CC…im not sure anyone has forgotten they started 3-9…. most people gave up then and havent looked up since then with their angst..despite any successes or changes that have happened since then…
a lot has changed since then…but it seems many people made up their minds right there and then…and MM haters or GM haters or player haters…or whatever had all the ammo they needed to ride their disappointment all the way until now…
wit ha win tonight we could be 1 game out with 45+ game left… even if we don’t make the playoffs e have made big strides this year and have plenty to look at positively about this season…
I don’t get why some people brand others as haters or kool-aid drinkers. Why can’t we have more substantive discussion than that?
One poster has been slamed, Brian that I know of and that was for defending our home town manager too much. He got ganged up on. A poster called him a 4 year old. Pretty inappropraite, don’t you think? I’ve seen comments about MM for several years now that are uniview. People dwell on his weaknesses and don’t really care to acknowledge his strengths. Productive discussions weigh pluses and minuses. That goes for almost any type of discussion.
Poor misunderstood Matheny. You can have the board I bow out. Obviously other than blind loyalty to the Cardinals manager and front office is frown upon. That’s not me. I love the Cardinals but will never be blind to their shortcomings anymore that I try not to be to mine. You and Jager have made it very clear that it is your way or the highway. This time I choose the highway. Enjoy the rest of the season and Go Cards!
bccran
Participant
One poster has been slamed, Brian that I know of and that was for defending our home town manager too much. He got ganged up on. A poster called him a 4 year old. Pretty inappropraite, don’t you think? I’ve seen comments about MM for several years now that are uniview. People dwell on his weaknesses and don’t really care to acknowledge his strengths. Productive discussions weigh pluses and minuses. That goes for almost any type of discussion.
I wasn’t defending our home town manager and wasn’t ganged up on. However, I do recall someone questioning my credentials.
I’m actually talking about me, Forsch. I’ve been strong in defense of MM and some people don’t like that.
They tend to jump on, and don’t want to engage in talking about Mike’s strengths and weaknesses. Or that Bill Dewitt has been acclaimed as one of the best owners in baseball, even with making moves like Heyward, Fowler, Cecil, and not securing a #3 or #4 hitter in the off season. Look at NJ’s post above. He’s just going to pack his bags and leaving.Brian likes to deal with facts. So do we.
1. Cardinal won-record under MM compared to
other Cardinal managers.
2.) Strength of teams (accumulated WAR) under various Cardinal managers and their records those years.
3.) TOtal WAR days lost to injury in 2016 compared to division rivals.
4.) Who the #3 and #4 hitters were going into 2017.NJ, it is too bad if you are leaving. I hope it is not because of my comments, which clearly mentioned examples of two different extremes of people labeling others who disagree with them.
Fans show their interest in many ways, shapes and forms. Everyone needs to accept that reality. The moderators and I set the tone here. We’ve tried to head it off when some questioned others’ fandom or got personal instead sticking to the discussion at hand.
This particular topic can be frustrating and it is clearly a hot one, given the six pages and growing length. But we need to stay clear of labeling others with whom we disagree and focus on the issues.
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