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What some people refer to as underperforming I consider to actually be mis-evaluation. Just because our FO expected Grichuk, Piscotty, Fowler, Oh, and Rosie to perform like all stars doesn’t make it so. The FO mis-evaluated our talent and assigned it a projection that was not realistic.
I stand corrected. I would agree with your comment. The front office did misjudge on how effective the players referenced would be in 2017.
First round draft picks Grichuk,
Piscotty, and Wong were expected to develop into at least major league average ball players. Gyorko was a second rounder. Those weren’t miscalculations.In making decisions on how to build our 2017 MLB roster after the 2016 season concluded, the Cardinals had 7, 5, and 4 years of professional performance to determine how Grichuk, Wong, and Piscotty would project into the roster. Hopefully they were taking that into account, and not which round they were drafted in years ago. If it was the latter, then our problems aren’t getting fixed anytime soon with that approach.
Wong, Piscotty, and a healthy Gyorko were projected to be solid contributors, based upon their entire body of professional work. Grichuk has been given a longer than normal gestation period because his power is extraordinary.
Giving Adams away for a low level prospect was the head scratcher. Especially when power is lacking in the system.Okay. You’re the manager, Forsch. You have the position players that MM has. How would you play them, and why would that make a difference? Please be specific and tie changes specifically to advanced performance you’re sure would result.
Just to give you a couple of areas that I think Matheny is poor.
1) Continued playing of lesser defensive players in key defensive positions. For example, he has played Fowler in CF while we were playing Sierra or Pham in a corner OF position. He has done this in the past by playing Carpenter at 2B and Wong in the OF. Or Gyorko at SS and Garcia at 3B.
2) Continuing to use relief pitchers in only certain situations and overusing them.Fowler had played 1,003 professional games. 1,002 were played in
CF. No experience at all in LF or RF. He was the starting center fielder in the 2016 All Star game.
Think about that. Greg Carcia played games at 2B, SS, and 3B at Memphis. He was drafted as a
college SS. Playing 3B was not foreign to him. His value is being able to play 3 infield positions as a utility guy. Gyorko played
more games at SS for the Padres than he has for the Cardinals. He was brought in as a guy who could also play 3 infield positions. As far as relief pitchers, neither you or I know the match up stats,
nicks or injuries info, fatigue factors, etc.The one actionable problem is the manager, who should have been fired before Travis Ishikawa touched home plate.
The late game managing in that game might go down in history as the prime example of what not to do. There were a series of mistakes made. However, Maddon screwed up a lot in last year’s World Series, over-using Chapman for one when he did not need to, but got away with it. Had Cleveland completed their comeback in game 7, Maddon’s decisions would have been highly criticized.
The situation with the 2017 Cardinals is fairly easy to assess. The offense and bullpen have not performed to management’s expectations, and on-field management is so-so. The fact that the players have not done the job is probably first and foremost, but this team under Matheny makes far too many fundamental blunders and mistakes, and those do not seem to get addressed.
I do believe Mike has gotten better at using his bullpen, and has gotten away from using a push-button approach and sticking with guys in order to better their stats.
But the poor use of players, and a general style of playing guys and constructing batting orders almost based on what they did the day before contributes to players being uneasy and pressing, which leads to the fundamental errors.
Some in the Cardinals’
organization have said off the record that the 2 people most missed this season are Oquendo and Holliday. Both made the whole team better, for a long list of reasons.Following on bikemike:
Wacha vs. Ishikawa was notable because of the magnitude of the failure, but not unique. TLR used to talk about it in the context of putting players in the best possible position to succeed. I don’t hear that any more and see a lot of examples where that philosophy does not seem to be followed. Over time, the examples stack up.
bccran, ask your contacts why Oquendo is no longer on Matheny’s staff and instead prefers to work elsewhere in the organization. Go beyond the convenient explanation of his knees. Who knows? It might be enlightening.
If I was sure the next manager would be better than Matheny, I’d say go ahead bring him in. But there’s no guarantee of that. Its not a sure thing at all. The best thing to happen, IMHO, is for MM to turn over a new leaf and start demanding that his players play to the best of their ability. That’s what leadership is about.
Looking good on camera, sounding good in an interview, being a father figure in the clubhouse are fine qualities. But leadership is about bringing out the best in your players and coaches.
Exactly and even when LaRussa’s personality grated on me he did just that put the players in situations for them to succeed. Matheny’s logic is hard to understand. Seems “gut” feelings drive him.
Word I heard is that Jose came back a little too early after knee surgery and aggregated it badly. He decided that the rigors of travel and 3+ hours in the coach’s box during games over a marathon season wasn’t going to be a smart thing to do. He has a home in Jupiter where he can coach during ST and during the season with the GCL Cardinals and the Palm Beach Cardinals. He could travel to other minor league cities during the season to put on clinics as needed.
It’s difficult for a leader to change his stripes effectively when going to more stringent expectations (e.g., running out routine grounders/flies, taking extra fielding drills when needed, etc.). Even if the leader is good at playing both good cop and bad cop roles, the masses often don’t buy into the bad cop when they are accustomed to serving the good cop. If this is at the heart of what Mo has eluded to when talking about cultural and clubhouse issues, it does raise questions about Matheny’s longevity.
I don’t care how many games Fowler has played in CF or that he was an all star in 2016. He is not anywhere as good in CF as Sierra or Pham. Gyorko had an extreme negative UZR/150 at SS and Garcia had a very slight negative going into UZR/150 going into 2016. Gyorko performed the same as his history in 2016 at SS while Garcia was in the positive in 2016. Yet, Matheny still played Gyorko at SS (a key defensive position) over Garcia. Why not put the personnel in the best position to make the TEAM successful.
It could very easily be argued that Matheny has overused Maness, Seigrist and Rosenthal over the years, just to name a few. The overuse usually came in the form of the roll the pitcher was normally used in. He would then just push the buttons.
BC, I have stated that I have supported Matheny for a long time. I think he has lost the clubhouse and doesn’t seem to think he makes bad decisions. He keeps plugging along with the same formula, win or lose. He obviously still thinks Fowler is a better CF (CF is the most important defensive OF position) than Pham. He is playing there again tonight on his first day back.
I am not so blinded that I only look at Matheny’s win/loss record or that he is a nice guy. I think there are better managers out there that the Cardinals could have. I want the best for the team.
I will ask you one more time. Over and over you told the at the other forum that the only fact that proved Matheny was a good manager was his winning percentage anything else was just an opinion. I ask you does that apply also this season or only the prior 5? If the players pick it up and he make the playoffs does the credit goes to them like the get the blame now or does the glory belongs to Matheny?
I just don’t try to point out and highlight everything that this manager does wrong and continually post about it, like some do. If a poster is fair, he or she would give this man credit when due equally as much as criticism when that’s deserved. I also question folks who have never been a major league manager saying what a bad job he does. By the way, what are your baseball credentials compared to MM, Forsch?
Should be put the 2 side by side?How about you provide your credentials to say that we as fans should blindly accept everything he does. Are you a GM? Team president? Owner?
If you are going to question my opinions and try to belittle those opinions just because you don’t like them, please feel free to provide data to back your opinion. Even use won/loss record if you so desire. So far, that seems to be the only thing you can hang your opinion on. Just remember that his win % has decreased each of the past 3 years.
I think if you were to go back through my history here, you will see that I don’t hammer on some player or manager relentlessly for long periods of time. However, I will defend my opinion when questioned or defend someone that I feel is being unfairly targeted.
I also agree with those who say that you can’t have it both ways. Either the players get the credit and blame when the team is playing good or bad or the manager gets the credit/blame when the team is playing good or bad. You can’t give the manager the credit when things are good but no blame when things are going bad.
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