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Euro, Herzog had Doug Bird and Mark Littell as his closers for the first few years of his Kansas City term. Al Hrabosky was the closer for the last 2 years. Dan Quisenberry came up in his last year but wasn’t his closer very much. I would say there was quite a difference in his closers between the Royals and the Cardinals.
Euro, isn’t one of the important stats for a late inning relief pitcher how many inherited runners he allows to score? The fact a pitcher put a runner on base is important to evaluate the pitcher who put him on base. The fact another pitcher allows him to score is important to evaluate the pitcher who is in the game when the runner scores.
As far as Sutter goes, I think he was a great closer. I am only trying to look at the times that pitchers were with the Cardinals since all I have ever contended is that Rosenthal is one of the best Cardinals closers, ever. Not THE best but one of the best. He is not a pitcher who has almost blown a “million” saves. Sutter had some “warts” but he overall was a good closer. I remember many times when he would come into a game that he either blew the game or allowed runners to almost blow the game. However, he was still good. When Rosenthal is healthy, he has been good as well.
One minor point about Sutter’s Cy Young votes. In 1981, he finished 5th but there were only 5 pitchers who received votes. He received 1 3rd place vote and finished with 1 point out of a possible maximum of 120. That year, Sutter was the only NL reliever receiving CY votes but in the AL there were 2 relievers who recieved votes and both had many more points. Rollie Fingers actually won the CYA. In these times, relievers do not receive the same recognition from CY voters. Even Mariano Rivera didn’t receive much attention from CYA voters in the last 8 years of his career.
Only the last 2 years are with the Cardinals and here are his blown saves from age 23-29.
1976 – 2
1977 – 9
1978 – 14
1979 – 10
1980 – 9
1981 – 7
1982 – 9Consistent?
I started my last post prior to Rats’ post at 8:31. I got sidetracked for awhile before finishing.
I will be glad to drop this but will finish by saying that almost all closers are inconsistent. Even the good ones.
Rat, I never said anything like that. But here’s a stat for you. Other than his last outing, Rosenthal had a 1.15 WHIP overall this season. Since being re-instated as the closer around the middle of July, he was 1-1 with 7 saves in 9 appearances. I didn’t count his last appearance since in 8 pitches he had a walk, a HBP and a hit allowed with a maximum velocity of 96 MPH. He was obviously injured and was taken out because of it.
In 2016, he did have shoulder issues. That is something that did affect his year. I will have to find the info where it was talked about how long he pitched with those issues. That would explain why last year was so out of line with his other years.
I will say that Rosenthal needs to learn when to talk to his coaches about having injuries.
He lost the closer’s role in 2016 not 2017. He was injured during 2016 which affected his pitching. MM handed the role in 2017 to Oh, despite Rosenthal being healthy. Once Rosenthal was handed the closers role in 2017, he took control of it until he was injured again.
I don’t care if you are excited about calling him one of the best or not. IMO, when healthy, he is one of the best and you already alluded to that earlier.
bccran
Participant
Sure, he’s one of the better closers in Cardinals history in his short tenure (2016 excluded – way excluded). No disputing that. But his tenure as a closer is short compared to others. And he lost his job to Oh until Oh had problems. Let’s see how he holds up in the future, both in both health and productivity.
That’s all I have ever said: he’s one of the best closers in Cardinals history.
In 2017, he did not lose the closers role. MM handed the role to Oh to start the season and never gave it to Rosenthal until the middle of July. Rosenthal then took control of it. I understand that MM probably took into account Rosie’s terrible 2016 but he didn’t base his decision on 2017.
Rat, I gave you the facts above. In 2014, he faced the minimum number of batters or 1 over the minimum in 2 out of every 3 possible save appearances. Do you have anything other than memory that says he about “blew millions” of games?
Or are you going to continue to just troll with your “memory”?
Through their age 27 season:
Smith – 113 (160 with Cardinals, all after age 27 season)
Eckersley – 3 (66 with Cardinals, all after age 27 season)
Sutter – 133 (127 with Cardinals, all after age 27 season)
Isringhausen – 42 (217 with Cardinals, all after age 27 season)
Worrell – 74 (129 career saves with the Cardinals)
Hrabosky – 59 (his career total with the Cardinals)
Rosenthal – 121Rosenthal is 5th on the Cardinal all time saves list.
BC, Rosenthal has not been the closer the whole year this year. MM used Oh as the closer until he “discovered” that Rosenthal was better at it. He’s had 13 save opportunities this year and converted 11 of them.
If you want to use the number of saves in a year as a measure of how good a reliever is then you need to take another look at Hrabosky. His save totals per year for the Cardinals: 0, 0, 0, 5, 9, 22, 13, 10. I know that was another era but that is not outstanding numbers. You are the one who brought up Hrabosky as a good closer.
Another point: I have never said anything about Rosenthal being one of the best closers ever. I said he has been one of the best Cardinal closers, ever. Not THE best. ONE of the best. I agree that he has to do it over a little more time to be considered one of the best closers in the game, ever.
Rat, I would love to have you try to prove the point, especially since you use the term “millions”. However, I know you won’t try or be able to. I have read many posts from you over the years where you remember things, only to be proven wrong, disappear and say the same thing again somewhere else. Then we get to play “whack-a-mole” for awhile.
What I will point out to you is that he saved 88% of his save opportunities. He only had 6 blown saves (2 losses) out of 51 opportunities. In 32 of his 51 save opportunities, he faced the minimum number of batters or 1 over the minimum. So about 66% of the time he was not in a position that he almost blew it. He faced the minimum number of batters in 21 of his 72 appearances. He faced 1 over the minimum in 21 other appearances. He did have a high walk rate but using some metrics, he added about 2 wins to the team. These are looking things up quickly. I imagine I could go further with more time.
My point, as it has been all along, is that the memory isn’t always as reliable as the facts. As an example, Al Hrabosky is being credit for being one of the Cardinals’ good closers yet he only has a 73% save percentage as a Cardinal.
He’s been good 3 out of the last 4.
Also, if Rosenthal were to leave the Cardinals now and go to another team, he could be considered one of the best in Cardinal history if he is a good reliever for another team for many years? Sutter, Worrell, Hrabosky, Eckersley and Smith were closers here for around 5 years at the most.
If you are calling Isringhausen a good closer for us, Rosenthal would be, too. I can remember the uproar from posters about him every time he came into a game. He was looked at about like Rosenthal.
bccran
Participant
As a major leaguer, Rosenthal has walked 143 batters in 325 innings pitched. Take a look at his WHIPs over the past 4 years.
2014 – 1.41
2015 – 1.27
2016 – 1.91
2017 – 1.20Those aren’t the numbers of a great closer.
So Rosenthal has allowed 1 more walk for every 4 innings pitched than Sutter did. He also has struck out 1 more batter for every 1.5 innings pitched than Sutter did. They were even for hits per inning pitched. I would also guarantee you that the defense those early 1980s Cardinals had made a big difference for Sutter.
In 2016, Rosenthal was bad. Overall, he hasn’t been. He is one of the best in Cardinal history.
BM, I understand that the more innings a pitcher throws in a game, the more opportunity to get a blown save. There is also the consideration of the more often a reliever pitches, the greater the chance the pitcher can be tired. Also, how many saves did Sutter have because he threw multiple innings but wouldn’t have had one if he wouldn’t have came into the game until the 9th (lead grew to greater than 3 runs). He also had many 3 inning saves where the lead was greater than 3
I think Rosenthal overthrows in a one inning situation and throws too many fastballs. He seems to do better in his stints where he knows he will be throwing several innings. He had a terrible year last year. However, he has not almost blown “millions” like Rat believes and is one of the best relievers in Cardinals history. I am not saying he is the best but he is one of the best.
bccran
Participant
Brian – you’re a good guy and do an extremely professional job on here. You just come down a little hard sometimes. That’s all.
You are saying this after some of the comments you have made regarding Voit and Helsley in the past.
To be brutally honest, I wouldn’t have jumped in on some of these debates if you would have shown more respect to some of the posters’ opinions in the past.
Brian Walton
Keymaster
11. Fernandez
12. Hicks
14. HelsleySo, all this is about a difference of opinion over three ranking spots, from #14 to #11? Really?
Technically, it is 2 ranking spots. #13 would move up to #11 and Helsley to #12.
So where do you believe Helsley should be on the prospect list? What players listed above him do you feel should be below him?
And yet he has converted 86% of his save opportunities. That is better than any 1 year of Sutter’s tenure in St. Louis. Rosenthal has blown less than 4 saves a year on average over the last 4 years. Sutter averaged over 8 blown saves a year with the Cardinals.
BC, I can’t help it that you won’t back your analysis. It does lead me to question your motives for always questioning others’ analysis without responding to their counters.
Rat, you get something in your head and you won’t listen to reason. The numbers are there. Rosenthal is one of the best. You fondly remember the good times of Sutter, Smith, etc. but you don’t remember the bad times. They were equally ineffective and sometimes get the job done by a whisker.
Ratsbuddy
Participant
…. we have two relievers that should only be in the game if we are ahead or behind by the score of 10-1 in the 8th.
I have shown you in the past how Rosenthal is one of the best relievers the Cardinals have ever had. I see that instead of listening to facts, you are going to constantly troll about him just like you have done in the past with several other players. Pathetic