- This topic has 999 replies, 39 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
So you can’t make critical comments about: a politician if you’ve never been elected yourself, a doctor’s practices if you don’t have a medical license, a contractor performing subpar work on your house if you don’t have construction credentials, etc. That’s not an effective argument.
These types of forums have had polls over the years, and I think on average they came down to the fact it’s 85-90% player performance and 10-15% managerial decisions. Qualifications?
I played 4 years of D-I college baseball
(pitcher), but that was many years ago.As far as baseball managers, politicians, doctors, contractors, etc. I don’t feel qualified to be critical. Or maybe I just like to give most people the benefit of the doubt. Looking at the glass as half full seems so much more fulfilling and less stressful.
Another take on the not having it both ways. If one does not feel qualified to offer a critique due to lack of personal experience, it also means the individual does not have the knowledge to offer credible praise, either.
Hi Brian! Hope you’re having a good evening, and all is well with you and your family. Good to hear from you. Looking forward to getting together again.
Here’s hoping we can finally get to .500 tonight!
You don’t have to have played the game at a high level to understand it or look at a situation objectively. I will stand by my record on here as being an objective fan who looks at the good and the bad and usually gives the benefit of the doubt to the Cardinals.
It’s been said that we should give credence to “those in the know”.
I just checked 5 web sites that rank major league managers. The highest MM was ranked was #6, and the lowest he was ranked was #15.
All I know is that people in the organization regard him highly, especially his leadership qualities. I know enough from the people that I’ve talked to that he has many characteristics that make a good manager. That’s why I’ve stated on here that I regard him highly. As far as his tactical expertise? Again, I’m unqualified to
judge that because I’m not qualified and don’t have all the behind the scenes facts and data.It would be interesting to see the dates and sources of those surveys. I bet many were before this season.
I recalled seeing MLB manager rankings on MLB Network fairly recently and found the discussion. It was on June 20. Brian Kelly, Ken Rosenthal, Dave Valle and one other analyst discuss the list.
Matheny was ranked dead last – #30 of 30. Valle was uncomfortable with the subject and when pressed said to look at won-loss record and standings. Rosenthal did not take exception with it, saying the names at the bottom are generally those who fans, observers and probably MLB execs consider to be the lowest-ranked managers. Specifically, he mentioned the Cardinals were playing a poor brand of baseball.
People can be fickle. If the Cards get hot and win the Central, the same guys will be high on him again less than 2 months from now.
It’s been said that we should give credence to “those in the know”.
… unless they say what we don’t want to hear …
Or maybe the truth hurts and you don’t want to see it…
MM was a BAD hired from minute one, MO was giving his boy the job end of story even if/when there were much better options than him.
“MM was a bad hire from day one”
Now that type of generaliatic, shallow, statement is truly thought boggling. An insult to reason.
Bill Dewitt, Jr. is one of the most highly thought of owners in MLB. Look at the history of the Dewitt family in the game. He’s also a superior businessman. He’s thoughtful and thorough. He doesn’t make a “bad hire from day one”. No matter what some anonymous self professed expert poster on some baseball forum thinks.
Last 10 years record for MLB teams (as of 4/12/2017) –
30.) Astros – 711-908
29.) Marlins – 752-866
28.) Twins – 755-867
27.) Mariners – 757-863
26.) Rockies – 759-862
25.) Padres – 759-862
24.) Pirates – 763-855
23.) Royals – 770-850
22.) Diamondbacks – 755-845
21.) Orioles – 780-839
20.) White Sox – 782-839
19.) Reds – 789-831
18.) Athletics – 796-823
17.) Nationals – 798-820
16.) Brewers – 806-814
15.) Mets – 807-813
14.) Indians – 811-807
13.) Cubs – 811-806
12.) Blue Jays – 822-798
11.) Braves – 826-793
10.) Phillies – 834-786
9.) Giants – 838-782
8.) Rays – 841-780
7.) Tigers – 855-764
6.) Rangers – 861-760
5.) Red Sox – 873-747
4.) Dodgers – 878-741
3.) Angels -881-739
2.) Cardinals – 892-728
1.) Yankees – 913-707So what do BDW, Mo, and MM get for it?
“Dewallet”
“Bow tie”
“MM was a bad hiring from minute 1”No wonder fans in other cities call us spoiled and obnoxious.
Last 10 years record for MLB teams (as of 4/12/2017) –
30.) Astros – 711-908
29.) Marlins – 752-866
28.) Twins – 755-867
27.) Mariners – 757-863
26.) Rockies – 759-862
25.) Padres – 759-862
24.) Pirates – 763-855
23.) Royals – 770-850
22.) Diamondbacks – 755-845
21.) Orioles – 780-839
20.) White Sox – 782-839
19.) Reds – 789-831
18.) Athletics – 796-823
17.) Nationals – 798-820
16.) Brewers – 806-814
15.) Mets – 807-813
14.) Indians – 811-807
13.) Cubs – 811-806
12.) Blue Jays – 822-798
11.) Braves – 826-793
10.) Phillies – 834-786
9.) Giants – 838-782
8.) Rays – 841-780
7.) Tigers – 855-764
6.) Rangers – 861-760
5.) Red Sox – 873-747
4.) Dodgers – 878-741
3.) Angels -881-739
2.) Cardinals – 892-728
1.) Yankees – 913-707So what do BDW, Mo, and MM get for it?
“Dewallet”
“Bow tie”
“MM was a bad hiring from minute 1”No wonder fans in other cities call us spoiled and obnoxious.
Wacha vs. Ishikawa was notable because of the magnitude of the failure, but not unique.
What bothered me even more about that decision, was when asked about it Matheny simply said “I felt good about Wacha in that situation”. and then moved on to other questions.
What we need to hear if we are going to take Matheny seriously as a manager, is for him to explain why he felt good about Wacha – maybe his fastball had a lot of movement in recent warm-ups; maybe Matheny felt he was an unknown to the Giants and might be someone they had not planned on facing. Stuff like that.
The question got a quick brush off, and so it makes you question whether Matheny really knows his craft. But that was a few years ago and hopefully he has become a more critical thinker. Questions still abound though, due to the poor fundamentals of our club.
ANd you thinking he was a good hire means next to nothing also, there were BETTER options then to hire and Mo and D went with their PAL who had ZERO ZERO Major league coaching exp and it shows he still makes some of the dumbest decisions in all of baseball
If the discussion was ownership or the GM, the last 10 years regular season record is interesting. Since many of those wins were under TLR, however, it is not a valid comp for Matheny.
And as we have seen, his team’s post-season record has been in a consistent annual decline. With this potentially being the second straight non-playoff year, it is natural to expect more scrutiny and criticism on the manager and the organization. That is not all on the manager for sure, but it is clear the rest of the division has caught and in some cases, passed the Cardinals. The recent trend is concerning to many, many observers.
We are a week into August and today’s big celebration is that the team reached .500 for the first time in over two months.
I did find it interesting that the #1 manager in the MLB Network feature from this June is Terry Francona, one of the Cardinals interviewees when Matheny was hired. Of course, the grass is always greener…
At some point we need to stop living off of the past. There is only so much mileage we can get out of 2006, 2011, and the other good seasons. The reality, as Brian pointed out, is that our year end finishes have declined every year since 2013.
My recollection is that we interviewed Matheny, Oquendo, Francona, and Ryne Sandberg. I remember thinking at the time that the obvious choice should be Francona because he and Sandberg were the only two with major league managing experience with Francona having the most success. In my opinion, an organization like St. Louis should never hire someone without managing experience. That may be the en vougue thing to do now with guys like Roberts, Cash, Luvullo, Green, and Ausmus being hired without managing experience, but I prefer the more proven route. LaRussa was a very powerful and independent minded person and perhaps the front office preferred someone who they could have more control over and someone who was going to go along more with the promote from within approach.
Since 1980 we have had four full time managers: Whitey Herzog, Joe Torre, Tony LaRussa, and Mike Matheny. Two of them are in the MLB Hall of Fame and Whitey is in the Cards Hall of Fame. Matheny will never measure up to those guys. I’m not advocating his firing right now but I do hope the next time we have a vacancy we hire a proven winner.
I was a bit surprised the club did not at least make an offer to Francona when we interviewed for managers after 2011. But I thought the Matheny hire was a good one, as he seemed like a natural to one day manage a ball club. His Cardinal heritage helped as well.
The big mistake, which Brian has pointed out a few times, was not having someone like say a Dave Garcia (not that he would be the guy, but he just came to mind as an example, probably because his grandson is on our club) as a bench coach to provide veteran counsel.
At this time it’s mostly a moot point on Matheny. I felt management should have held off on the contract extension and evaluate the on-field staff after this season. They chose to stay with the status quo and push the contract out, and no doubt will go in to 2018 with Matheny and crew unless the whole ball club does a “Brandon Moss” and falls apart between now and September 30th.
Matheny’s on-field work has obviously been flawed. He continues to fumble around and favor certain players. Another example came up recently when he made some silly comment about playing Grichuk and letting him “sink or swim”, despite the fact that Pham is the best player on his team. Grichuk has been given more opportunities to sink or swim than Michael Phelps, and Pham has shown what he can do when healthy, yet Matheny does this stuff over and over.
Fortunately despite saying that, he has kept Pham in the lineup as Piscotty’s flop makes it so Pham has to play.
Who has the best winning percentage as a major league manager?
Whitey Herzog
Tony LaRussa
Joe Torre
Mike MathenyFor the same 4, who has the best winning percentage as a Cardinal manager?
Not long ago we were hearing about how Bruce Bochy is one of the best managers in the game. Now he’s not even making the Top 10 in the poll posted by Brian. Terry Francona was let go by the Red Sox in 2011 after winning two World Series. None of it makes sense, IMO.
Hmmmm, let’s look back all the way to yesterday. Who brought up managerial rankings in this thread in the first place? It looked so promising – until it gave the wrong answer. So today, we discredit them.
Bochy is ranked 12th. That is a heck of a lot better than 30th.
Francona and Boston ownership were at odds. The issue was not his managerial abilities. You can read about him here.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.