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Not having power at Palm beach isnt exactly a stretch. The average ops in the league is under .700 (roughly .680 to give the data point)
slightly above league average batting from a shortstop with above average d is pretty solid if his age is appropriate. It is.
I dont see it as hate. All athletes struggle with this when they start going downhill.
The fans want the best player playing. Period.
We just happen to have a good long term replacement.
If your team has a hole at a rare position (catcher qualifies) value can be relative.
Having said that… Kelly doesnt play second fiddle to many players regardless. He had an ops 50 points above the league average while several years below the average age. As a catcher. With the best defense in the league.
He’s probably the closest prospect to posey that’s come out in the last decade. He might bomb but you can make a valid comparison given the position change as an outlier/qualifier.
P.s. The indians guy seems like he will move off catcher because of injury concerns from what I last heard.
Having a bunch of above average bats is not exactly a downside.
And kelly and knizner both have the “big bat” argument due to position.
One thing I do like about virtually all of these guys on the position player side (including the catchers) is they range from defensively good to strong
Bader might be the weakest one defensively and he aint bad.
Ja garcia won’t stick in center. Berkman played center at one point too… He couldnt play it like sierra can.
Garcia would play center like grichuk played center. There is a difference even though I have pointed out multiple times that grichuk wasnt horrible. If he had hit he might have been great out there.
So yeah… You probably have a point. Im not sure if it changes my list though. I will ponder.
Might want to lower the bar a bit for peoria and Palm beach. Those two are notorious for being two of the worst places in the minors to hit.
Florida state league is awful in general.
6. Knizner — I know I’ve said it 100 times but catchers are underrated in prospect lists. I think he’s getting knocked a bit because he hasn’t done the afl yet and has a couple pretty good guys in front of him… You just dont find good defensive catchers that can hit and this ranking reflects that.
7. Alcantara – he might end up our closer next year.
8. Gallen — he dominated the acc. He has pitched well all the way up the system.
9. Gomber — he wont make this five probably and that’s fine. After his first ugly start he pretty much just had another ho hum year.
10. Arozarena — I think he’s the best of the next three guys who can play center.
Guys I left out and why :
Sierra — think he’s the worst of the three cf prospects in this area. Arozarena hits. Mercado seems to be the full package.
Hudson — k rates are scary… Great stuff but…
Perez — show me the talent. He bombed this year.
Ja garcia — doesnt play premium position and one year can’t jump him higher for me.
… Molina gets hurt and he plays for us for 15 years starting immediately. Yadi will not get his job back.
There is no stated plan. Yadi has the job until carson is traded or he gets hurt.
Carson has buster posey talent… Or so, close it is nitpicking to quibble. You dont knock him because of imagined scenarios.
When a guy is a ten year all star in the making you dont put him behind a bunch of other guys because of maybes no matter how good I personally think our system is.
I said that because you refused to vote for someone because you didnt think they would remain a cardinal
I stand by it. The reason was invalid.
That’s not an insult. Prospect lists don’t work that way and taking it as an insult … Well you have too much time on your hands.
… And you dont know how prospect lists work.
Bader vs O’Neill should be a heck of a debate…
Fwiw… Imo bader because if he hits for this type of power/obp in center he is an all star.
O’Neill still has rob deer issues… But maybe more upside. Maybe. Has 40+ homer potential but …
To me bader can hit 30 in center — which makes more of a difference than 40 in right and he has less downside.
Says something that a guy like O’Neill has people breathing down his neck to even crack our top five when he was preseason top fifty overall.
Bader #4
It does. I wasn’t the one trying to argue that it was.
Bader plays a premium position and well… He can play.
Value as a prospect is predicated by position. Someone with Kelly’s development/stats who plays first isnt half the prospect.
…
P.s. I get infinitely more caustic when we discuss Dexter fowler (which will be inevitible when bader sierra mercado etc. come up).
The words “extremely stupid” don’t cover my feelings on that one from day one. I blew up on here for about a week.
… Not voting for him at all because of irrelevant reasons is.
… And the prospect ranking industry in general has him 30 or 40 spots lower than he should be.
You’re probably right in a sense… But pitching tends to underperform long term in prospect lists because injury risk is higher.
…and kelly plays the hardest to find position in the game.
So yes… I will repeat — it is a crock that he fell this far. Harsh but accurate in my eyes. Feel free to disagree… I dont take this too personally.
I will defend my stances though.
Not much to it really..
Posey had a better year at 22 in aaa to be fair… But carson had time learning a new position so gotta give some leeway there. Some. I’m not asking for much.
Career ops for posey (in pitchers park to be fair) : .850
Carson was named best defensive catcher in aaa.. So the defense is there. Also power develops late and he had the catcher learning curve.. Well…
.834 ops in aaa … Add a bit of power with a slighly extended curve due to learning the position and maybe subtract a bit because the pcl is a hitters league…
Carson is a hairs width short of that standard (posey) most likely… But it aint much short. And his defense is excellent.
He needs to be WAAAAAAAAY more respected and hasnt been.
To give you an idea with kelly… Because for some reason people want to not rate him high… Repeatedly. Excuse after excuse.
Buster posey with better defense.
…. And yes I can back that up.
That is a top ten prospect in baseball. It is a crock to put him third on this list much less lower.
He shouldnt be traded. Period. Yadi should accept his 60 million dollar severance and accept that he won’t be starting by the end of it.
Doesnt matter.
The question is “who will have a better career”
NOT
“Who will have a better career as a cardinal?”
thats the purpose of prospect lists. Your reasons are irrelevant to the question at hand.
Edit : Also while im thinking about it…
We know more about kelly than the people you are touting. Also, baders value as a prospect is predicated on playing center… And he is extremely blocked there as a cardinal.
So let me get this straight.
Guy should probably be in the top ten prospects in baseball… And somehow that ranks him below other players simply because he is blocked.
Your Lamborghini is locked in the garage and somehow it is a worse car than the prius.
….
…
..
.
Someone doesn’t understand how prospect lists work.
Re : baseball america
I stopped taking the league by league ones seriously when memphis couldnt get anyone in a league they dominated with a very young team.
Ba just refuses to rate cardinals well and pretty much has for years
If you keep him and trade fowler you eliminate a lot of the negatives by putting him at a premium position.
That ops in center gives him top 3 or 4 in of value (still way behind trout but still. .900 ops nothing to sneeze at with cheap control).
You can also sell him as a cf pretty easily with the same logic in my opinion. Might not get everything you wish for but you’d get quite a lot.
Sticking with kelly…
As for reyes getting mlb players out… Nobody has denied his talent. Small sample sizes and all that.
Trust me… This is one I’d happily be wrong about (not sure a current ranking opinion can be wrong barring reyes having a cy young year very soon or kelly imploding but regardless).
