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You have to pay to play. Period. Which means you have to be willing to outbid the Yankees on occasion either in dollars or talent (I use them as the extreme example, NOT a specific one… Stanton not coming here was on him IMO).
Right or wrong, we aren’t. We hit that wall and stop.
Is that discipline? Yep. It is also the reason we have stagnated. The only way it pays off for us long term is if the world falls into a legit depression.
Possible. I know enough to even say likely eventually.
But in the meantime we have too much average talent and a decade of making ONE such move (ozuna) which is utterly unacceptable in a contender.
They’ve brought the impatience on themselves.
Brian that’s a copout answer designed to try and calm people down and give no substance.
I love the base of how they organizationally construct rosters. I don’t love that they don’t have enough talent to win our division much less a world series and yet refuse to get off their butt and make the moves to do so.
We’ve got the organizational depth. That’s the single most important step in how you construct rosters.
After that, it has been murky as heck since larussa left.
My perspective on that game is strange.
I had hurt my eye in early October and was unable to watch the games due to the pain. I pretty much had to be in total darkness for six months. Luckily it was a work injury.
Anywho…
I had to listen to the radio broadcast (over the internet but eh… 3 second delay I didn’t know the difference anyway) like when I was a boy. It was actually nostalgic and exciting for me despite the pain.
I turned off the broadcast about ten times for two minutes or so, including after Hamilton’s homer in the tenth. It was horrible lol…
Anywho…
Given that backdrop… to me you can’t separate the two. 1 and 1a… doesn’t matter which is which. That game is the true gem. If you want to call one greater than the other… fine… I’m good with it. I’m just glad I got to experience what I did.
I think it was five months later I finally got to see the game.
No it isnt… but having eight to ten internal options that will allow you to carry the extra bat and win 2 more games simply due to availability is better than any reliever. Literally any one.
The argument isn’t who is the better pitcher.
The argument is whether 13 pitchers is moronic when you have that many arms available that can shuttle. It is.
It isn’t only Mayers … we have way more than enough pitching at aaa to shuttle 3 or 4 guys and keep our bullpen fresh with 12 pitchers and an extra bench bat. Flaherty, Hudson, mayers, bowman, Reyes(later in the year), brebbia, sherrif, gant, ponce, helsley, and God knows I missed one or two.
Yeah yeah maybe some of them need to be starting every 5 or 6 days. So what? We’ve got give or take eight guys in aaa who could gobble up garbage innings and be happy shuttling due to the big league paycheck and benefits. They don’t have to be perfect to sit at the end of the bullpen. Just competent. And we’ve got more than enough to find competent arms for garbage time AND keep the extra bat around for late in the game.
The insistence on grabbing every bullpen arm available and leaving us shortbenched when we have such a huge built in advantage makes me want to cry inside and hit management upside the head. Hard.
Obsessing over two bad early spring starts is rather pointless.
Either he will improve or he won’t. I know I would be nervous after fighting that hard to get back on this side of the ocean.
Mikolas doesn’t deserve to get nitpicked because our gm made a move to pick him up and didn’t make another big one instead. It probably wasn’t even an either/or decision… we saw opportunity with mikolas and we took it.
Let the guy get through 6 weeks in the regular season then see where we are at.
I know you aren’t and I am trying not to…
The thing is, a dollar spent is still a dollar spent.
And 1 WAR is the same on a team basis regardless of how you get it. Individually it can make one player worth a ton more than another but as a team? We just want more regardless.
What im trying to get at is that I would rather see a hundred of these contracts versus one overpaid average free agent.
On an absolute basis, this contract gives your young big leaguers security, and is essentially “overpaying” for clubhouse serenity and will in general pay for itself at worst.
My argument against this one instance is that I feel the cards forgot a few things this time.
You can nitpick about a few million and probably be right. If you look at it another way it is pretty much just a cost of doing business if you want to build from within and keep players around with “under market” contracts when they become free agents.
You’re paying five million now to potentially save fifty million later and you get a happy clubhouse as a LARGE side benefit. Do ten of these and on average you will win virtually every time.
… where he loses his value and then makes this contract look significantly worse.
…not bad… Just worse.
It is a valid point… but you can’t just move people off premium positions without severe value consequences (see: carpenter, matt or machado, manny)
carioca is wrong IMO in stating that averaging three WAR will pay for this contract.
3 WAR over 6 years would be well in excess of the dollars involved even by my math which is distinctly harder on low WAR players than linear methods.
In other words, 4 million per year? 2 WAR does it. Easy. This is the contract an average player should get (and yes, that’s how bad the contract that shall not be named is).
One 4 WAR year would pay for it in its entirety or damn close. One. Out of 6. This isn’t a big deal.
The money isn’t the issue. Or even close.
The problem is the fact that we have neutered the value of our farm by doing this. If you want to do this, deal away your excess of minor league shortstops first.
The added (massive and hidden) cost is in the destruction of value in your minors.
Brian I have no problem with extending young talent. Even with Craig we did well.
I DO have a major problem with any contract that blocks an excess of minor leaguers at a position when it is not necessary at the time, and would be likely barely more expensive in a year if he played well.
Heck, Garcia maybe even could be a starter if we needed.
Let him show it. The rush didn’t give you anything relatively speaking.
The money isn’t an issue for me. Tactically this was idiotic at best.
Good for dejong. Not much else to say.
I agree with jager as well…
If you’re going to do this, you wait a year to allow you to deal your ss that are in the pipeline at max value.
… I should probably explain better.
Worst case with this we should get our money out of this. Which makes it a coin flip on whether or not locking him in was better than going through arbitration repeatedly.
This gives him security and a happier clubhouse… So yeah… probably smart on that front.
Are there diaz/grichuk worries here? Oh god yes. Premium position allays some of that. If they are confident in his work ethic it helps.
“He was not a top prospect” is a non starter argument with me due to the consistent massive underrating of our system nationally. They don’t rate us worth a damn anyway so why give them credibility when they have very little on our front anyway?
Having said all of that… when you’ve got sosa and Munoz in aa and aaa among others… wtf are you thinking? Yeah there are different ceilings etc but that is cutting your kids opportunities off and devaluing any potential trades due to the other party knowing we are locked down.
This front office seems to keep wanting to block/devalue their minor leagues and sign gigantic question marks to long term deals. Not cool.
Their track record with this is fairly good.
Not perfect, but good.
I would rather them overspend on young people by a couple million than overspend on middling veterans which seems to be the only other route they are willing to take.
If they’re confident enough in his work ethic that they feel he can learn to take a walk? Yeah… ok…
Having said all that… i honestly think this management team has jumped the shark…. but that may just be my knee-jerk reaction.
I’m not downgrading anything. I said three difference making players before the off-season. To be fair, I said this before the asinine move to carry too many pitchers.
Ozuna was good. A true closer would be another. A sp is looking like it would have been the third.
Given the idiocy of having too many people in the bullpen, we needed another hitter as well (because we can’t pinch hit anyway).
I don’t have a problem with giving mikolas a shot. The upside is worth that kind of investment.
However, I definitely have major problems with ONLY making investments in short term and/or average players…. which has been a definite pattern.
Making one move for the second best outfielder on the Marlins (doesn’t matter if he is still pretty good or not) isn’t going to be good enough. This team needed difference makers, not more average players.
If moves like this (which they do every year) are precluding getting real difference makers then the front office needs to be replaced. And that’s even if mikolas works out (which he very well might).
Agreed with all.
He got the last out of a world series. Teacher at worst, last chance at best. Let the guy play.
I have no problem with either side of the argument.
He has a high ceiling.
But he is going to have to put the work in… or else.
He could be either way too low… or way too high (I pretty much refused to vote on him because he is a crapshoot at this point).
Everyone hopes he gets his head out of his posterior. Because if he does he could do some awesome things.
I would fire them.
You can use your aaa team like they should be used. We have arms. Use them.
…and yes I realize that there’s roster limitations on callups. Ten days barring injury if I remember right. If you have four guys who can shuttle it isn’t an issue. We’ve got at least that who could fill in for a few days. Truthfully we probably have up to eight guys.
Does that create other issues with rotations etc.? Yes. Make solutions, not more problems. Have eight starters at memphis and carry more pitchers there.
The point is bullpen issues can be fixed with daily roster moves and pitching depth (something we supposedly have). Pinch hitters cannot.
And the fact that the front office doesnt recognize that and fix the issue is pathetic.
Burn out memphis, not st louis.
The al doesnt require pinch hitters. Good ones are a luxury.
In the nl, they are required. We do not have them.
You can call up a new pitcher after the game if a guy has a tired arm. You cannot call up a pinch hitter in the same circumstances and in any game you are giving away outs after the sixth. Extra inning games are exponentially worse.
12 barely makes sense. Whoever thinks 13 is a good idea should be fired and that includes mo. The idea is that asinine
My biggest issue here isn’t norris… It is the insistence on 13 pitchers.
We are going to lose games due to lack of pinch hitters.
Norris for the money is fine. I agree we could flip him at the deadline possibly as well… Nothing wrong with a little creativity. I just don’t see how another reliever helps us even if he pitches well.
Garcia is also behind arozarena and was behind sierra before the trade… Thus the fifth or sixth reference.
He is EXTREMELY talented for that kind of depth.
Part of me wanted to do this… Not wrongly lol…
1. Sam tewes
2. Sam tewes
3. Sam tewes
4. Sam tewes…but I decided to put a few more names down… Just because…
1. Sam tewes
2. Juan yepez
3. Matt pearce
4. J a garciaYeah… I went with guys a bit higher in the system. I know those guys better.
Reasoning with all these guys? They’re so far down the list in most cases people dont understand how good they are.
Tewes could pull a flaherty this year. Easily. Will he? Who knows. But he has that kind of talent and tj surgery should be behind him.
Yepez got shoved down the list imo because people were disappointed in the trade. He put up a .700 ops in peoria (league average/slightly above) at 19. Very underrated in low 40s imo. Peoria is NOT fun to hit in.
Pearce is a lot like gomber. He has a good arm and gets people out. Struggled at aaa but is still age apprpriate.
…and garcia. Only in our system could a guy with that arm and those stats be the fifth or sixth best outfield prospect. He is in the top twenty but it just feels way too low… Typical sleeper.
I dont remember who said it but the person who said long term contracts dont usually work out is on the right track.
Long term contracts for average big leaguers is correct.
The problem is most of these guys arent that great. Darvish is walking the line. Martinez is the same but his defense is falling off badly which limits everything. Arrieta used to be great and has fallen off so much that you cant count him as much more than average.
When you have a choice between a bunch of decent players this year, and a boatload of great ones worth at least ten times the value next year (and I would argue closer to 100 times more) that you can get relatively cheaper…
Umm… Duh… Not a hard decision.
Jager, it has nothing to do with depending on young players to be all stars.
the problem is we paid all star money for an everyday starter. Nothing more.
If he was an all star (5 WAR) we wouldnt be having this conversation. He has never been that good and moving to a corner spot makes it nearly impossible with his talent level.
