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As the Cardinal HOF evolves, I think we will see some specialized categories recognizing people who had significance beyond the playing field. The Cooperstown Hall has done that over the years, starting out with players only, then evolving to where managers, owners, umpires, broadcasters and others who were a big part of the game outside of direct participation are now enshrined.
The Cardinal Hall has some of that, and no doubt we will see more. Alston would fall in to that category. Another no-doubt Hall of Famer in that vein is Harry Caray. His impact as voice of the Cardinals for 25 years is hard to over-state. In sort of an odd way, the club could recognize KMOX as well, or perhaps Bob Hyland who had a huge impact on getting Cardinal baseball to the vast Midwestern territory in the post-WWII era.
Great suggestion, wvutrombone. Excellent commentary, and welcome.
Honoring Tom Alston’s breaking through to become the Cardinal’s first African-American player certainly has merit. Bill White did a lot to help management recognize the double standard in the organization at the time, a few years later than Alston, and of course was an all-star player as well. I would tend to favor White’s induction before Alston, but that does not mean I would exclude Alston.
My thought is Alston deserves recognition, perhaps in a special category that might be apart from being a Cardinal HOFer. Very good subject to discuss, and thanks for bringing this to the table.
Did anyone see that SI that came out in 2014 I believe, where it said something like “Presenting the 2017 World Series Champion – Houston Astros”? The ‘Stros were still rebuilding then and it seemed like a bit of a reach, but here they are with a good shot to fulfill the SI prediction.
I do not think the Cardinals have the talent right now to be a top tier team. But when you are close to at least getting a shot at post season, basically when you are somewhere around the 5th through 7th best team in the league, and lose a lot of one-run games the manager will be under more scrutiny.
Tough call for Baker. When you have Scherzer going strong, you would think he’s your best bet. But then he had that injury, so they did not want to push him too far. Still, in a game where there is almost no tomorrow, you really should stick with your ace, especially in a game where he had gone 6 no-hit innings.
As for the Tribe, they will have Kluber set for game 5 on normal rest. While he got rocked in game 2, he’s still one of the best in the game and you can’t ask for more than that in a must-win contest.
Regarding the “Best Fans In Baseball” motto, that is used by most every team that has a strong following. The Cardinals have probably marketed it more than other clubs, but out here in Denver I hear that now and then. Most of it is related to the Broncos, for which they will say the “best fans in sports” or maybe “…in football”.
But the Rockies will play up their fan base now and then, as they draw pretty good even in down years, which for them are many.
Rockies’ games tend to be more of a place to party for the millennials, rather than die-hard baseball fans. Cardinal games seem to have more people interested in the game, although I have not been to one in a few years so maybe it’s different now.
As an aside, I did not realize until now that Joe Girardi does not have a contract for next year. The Yankees clearly have a different strategy for “managing” their manager position.
The Rockies let Walt Weiss manage in the final year of his deal as well. I thought the Cardinals might do that with Matheny, and make a decision this off season. But they were obviously happy with his work when they extended the agreement, and did not want to put him a lame duck situation.
If healthy, I think Wong will be better in ’18 than this past year, perhaps significantly better. I think he is our second baseman for the next several years, barring a big trade or he becomes injury prone.
A quick comment on Mo saying criticism of Matheny is “unfair”. That makes no sense. When a team is in regression, of course criticism of anyone in the organization is fair. It might be misplaced at times, but certainly not unfair.
Heck, I criticized some of Maddon’s decisions in last year’s World Series. Was that unfair? They won, but Maddon made some curious moves.
Mo should be saying something like “The entire organization is accountable for the results on the field. When we fall short of expectations, then criticism of our work is certainly fair game. But rest assured we are addressing the club from top to bottom, and our plan is to return the Cardinals to the top of the division.”
Times have certainly changed. I rode my bike on the Fourth of July this past summer, and went by a couple of baseball fields and both were empty. I wondered why there were not at least Little League games or tournaments going on. But youth baseball has evolved to a highly organized and specialized business. Kids who play are part of an organization driven by parents who are highly invested in their children. What you might call “regular” kids where the parents just sort of let them do things on their own, do not seem to play much baseball. In other words, there is not the sandlot pick-up games like there used to be.
Also, much of the national sports media sort of downplays baseball. Last summer I was listening to ESPN radio, and these guys were talking about the big trade between the Celtics and Cavaliers, where Isaiah Thomas and Kyrie Irving switched sides. One host then brought up the impact of Jose Altuve, and how pound-for-pound he might be the best player in pro sports. But instead of just saying that, first he went on this sort of long apologetic comment about how (to paraphrase) “Although we do not talk about baseball much on this program, as LeBron James and the NFL are much more dominant topics than baseball….” So even when they talked a little baseball, they almost sounded embarrassed to go there and basically apologized to the listeners that they were going to bring up baseball.
As for the Cardinals, ironically I watched more games this summer than I probably have in all of the years of watching them combined. I have been almost exclusively a radio listener, but got the free MLB.TV subscription this year, combined with my first summer of “retirement” (am really only semi-retired, but took the summer off), so this was a different deal for me. Unfortunately this year’s team was tough to watch, although there were some bright spots (Pham, DeJong, some good starting pitching, a couple of nice winning streaks).
It is a bit funny as the club still wins more than it loses, and we feel the season was a failure whereas there was a time when it was not all that unusual for them to finish under .500.
Indeed. It was obvious in the second half of the 2015 season that the Cubs were trending upwards, and the Cardinals downward. Still the club won 100 games, and then won the first game of the division series against Chicago. Had they been able to complete that lap, maybe things would have gone a little different.
But still, it might have just been a blip in the rise of the Cubs and fall of the Cardinals. But for the Cubs to keep moving forward, they need to win this series against Washington. The regression in their record this year, and the late game meltdown in game two of their NLDS series had them in a similar position we were a couple of years ago after 2 games of the NLDS.
Interesting contrast in the two recent articles linked. First you have Tommy Pham, a true professional who constantly seeks improvement. Then you have the second article talking about a clubhouse where there is not enough professionalism on the club.
It is certainly more fun to go to work in an environment where you have the leaders setting an example by being there early, and staying focused and resolving problems. That is how a strong private enterprise operates, along with a culture that values the employees.
Professional sports is a bit different, as the talent levels are lot more defined and a talented, winning team will trump everything else. But then a strong clubhouse, where guys are exhorting and encouraging others will keep your head in the game, keep guys focused on what to do in every situation.
From what we hear and read, it sounds like a lot of that was lost when we basically swapped Holliday for Fowler. We will have to see if things are different in that regard in 2018, when the roster might look a lot different.
Hopefully the Nats come back and take the next three. If nothing else, then we hope the Cubs lose in the next round.
That Indians/Yankees game was an instant classic. Was in Wyoming mid-week, and while driving home I listened to game one of that series on XM, and was trying to come up with an Indians/Yankees team (a team made up of guys who played for both franchises). Here is a team (some former Cardinals on this team as well):
C- Rick Cerrone
1b – Chris Chambliss
2b – Joe Gordon
ss – Roger Peckinpaugh
3b – Joe Sewell
lf – Rocky Colavito
cf – Bobby Bonds
rf – Roger Maris
p – Ralph Terry
p – Allie Reynolds
p – CC Sabathia
p – George FrazierAnd of course Terry Francona’s dad, Tito, played for the Indians and Cardinals, but not the Yankees. Still remember a game my dad and I went to in 1966 when I was a kid, Cardinals vs Pirates. The Cardinals had acquired Orlando Cepeda about a month before this game, and I really wanted to see him play, but Red played Francona at first instead of Cepeda. Cepeda never even pinched hit, so I was disappointed. Also we lost 2-1 to Steve Blass. Nelson Briles started for us.
While Dex is slipping a bit as an outfielder, and would be better in left based on the numbers, he seems to be maturing some as a power hitter. Had he played all season he might have been a 25 homer guy.
I think he could be a solid left fielder on this club in 2018, with the added value of being an excellent teammate and clubhouse leader. As Stull’s article points out, anything is possible and we will see how things look going into Spring Training, but right now I see Fowler and Pham covering two outfield spots.
We would love to see a proven third outfielder, such as Stanton or Yelich, but those are unknowns at this point. I have Bader penciled in as the third outfielder right now. Historically Piscotty is a little better offensively, but not much, and Bader has a better overall game the Steven (better speed and defense). But it could be that both of those guys will be gone if a big deal is cut, so it all may look different come next season. The club probably prefers to deal Piscotty and his contract, but the other trade partner no doubt will want Bader over Piscotty.
Good comment, LB. I did not realize that, and obviously management was not concerned with the drop off when they gave him the deal. Reminds me a little of how Mark Mulder faltered in the second half of 2004, but we made the big deal for him anyway, which turned out to be a bad one.
Hopefully Piscotty proves to be a player, but it was tough watching him this year as he was just plain bad most of the time, offensively, defensively, and on the bases. He did have that game real early where he got hit in the head three times I believe. Maybe that sort of set the tone, along with his off field stress. Watching on TV (albeit not a great way to really get the feel of the game or team), he seemed to just not be into it – going through the motions in other words.
Martinez was terrible in the outfield, but I thought he handled first base pretty well. The key to playing first is developing good foot work, and he seemed to pick that up pretty well, especially for a guy that looked awkward in the outfield. For Martinez to have a decent major league career, I think he has to either play first base or be a DH. His value greatly diminishes when he is in the outfield.
Giving Martinez a shot to win the first base job is not the worst choice to be made. There may be better options come next Spring, but that is definitely something for management to keep in mind.
Management is obviously changing Matheny’s direct reports, to see if that helps the club break out of the mediocrity. If the trend line continues to be flat or downward, Mike will be gone sometime in 2018.
I expect Mabry will be let go as well. Tough business, although field personnel are highly compensated and work under a contract, which usually is covered if early termination occurs. That is a better gig than most of corporate America.
Saying the Cardinals first base WAR was 5.9 is a little misleading when talking about Matt Carpenter. Carpenter had a 2.9 WAR for the season. He finished just ahead of the 2.8 posted by Lance Lynn on the Cardinals. Tommy Pham lead the club at 6.3 (all of this is per baseball-reference). Rizzo was at 4.3 for comparison, and all-world Joey Votto was at 7.5.
Carpenter is still a decent player, but the Cardinals needed a difference maker in the middle of their lineup in 2017 and Carpenter did not bring that. He would be fine as our first baseman and lead off hitter if we got production that is often traditionally provided by a first baseman, from another source. Pham held his own primarily as the left fielder. Gyorko was at 3.9 at third, and that was in only 481 plate appearances (Carpenter had over 600).
So when you look at the traditional power positions, corner outfield and corner infield, at least for 2017 first and right field is where we were weakest.
On a side note, I think Gyorko is better than many here feel he is. People seem to prefer him as a “super-sub”, but he is pretty darn good and might fill the need at first base should we somehow acquire a guy like Machado.
I am sure the Cardinals will try to make some changes, as they most likely think that tweaking and banking on some under-achievers to come back next year sends a bad message to the fan base. Time to try something different.
As for Adams, he was little bit like Pham. He was always a pretty good hitter with some pop, but had a lot of injury issues. I was never as high on him as Pham, because I like the athletic all-around player better than the more burly-type player, but Adams can hit when healthy.
I am okay with Fowler. He can be a good fit for this team, and provide leadership as long as there is enough around him to compete. He should probably play left field, but can still play center if needed. The issue with him in center though is you have two older, declining players at key defensive spots (catcher and centerfield). Most winning teams have strong core players in those spots, and the middle infield.
The Yahoo guy puts Matheny at 50/50. Despite the decline, and the fact that Matheny is roundly criticized around baseball insiders as one the weaker strategists among the manager fraternity, I figure him a solid 80% chance of staying. I think management sticks with him another year, and will asses things after the 2018 season.
However, maybe there is more to this clubhouse discord stuff than we out here in the bleacher know.
Not sure where management is on frustrations about this past season, but my biggest gripes were these:
1. The whole “can only bat leadoff” stigma on Carpenter. Matheny played into that as well.
2. Piscotty’s major decline after inking a nice deal. My last straw with him was the abysmal strike-em-out-throw-em-out nonsense he pulled in the final week, letting a fat 3-2 pitch go for strike three. Heck, you learn in little league, or at least by high school to protect that runner, so you should be looking to swing even at pitches out of zone. That just showed his head was not in the game, and it was that way all year with him.
3. Diaz losing the ability to hit the ball where it’s pitched. It got so bad he would try to pull pitches that were in the left-hand batter’s box.
4. Tacking on to the Piscotty comment, a general lack of an intelligent hitting approach. It seemed that far too often, guys would take pitches that they had a good chance to square up, and swing at pitches where you would be unlikely to put good wood onto it. Did Mabry ever address this?
5. CMartinez not stepping up and being consistent enough to be a true ace.
6. Management’s disinterest in working on a deal to retain Lynn. They look at him “blocking” someone who they think will be better, rather than building the strongest and deepest pitching staff they can.
7. Cecil and Oh both faltering.The Cardinals traded for Fowler to be a catalyst at the top of the lineup, like he had been with the Cubs. Carpenter was asked to be an effective #3 hitter. The fact that he failed in that role was as big of a problem as anything else this season. The front office is not happy about that.
This has been my gripe all season, and is one of the big reasons the Cardinals stagnated on offense. Carpenter and Piscotty equally share most of the blame for the less-than-planned offensive “production”.Now most likely had Matheny stuck with Carpenter at the 3 spot, his numbers would have been about the same as they were for 2017. He did have fair power in terms of doubles and home runs, but you want a guy who hits consistently better than the lower half of the .200s. At #3. Walks are okay, but they are not going to get a guy in from second base and at 3 that’s what you are looking for. Walks to the #3 hitter should be the result of a more passive strategy – in other words they come from the pitcher working around the hitter because he is a threat to cause more damage with the bat (ala Joey Votto).
Now it could be that both Carpenter (shoulder) and Piscotty (injuries, off-field stress) rebound in ’18 due to the issues they had this season. Sometimes you find your solution within the organization, after a calendar year change.
I have always been high on Pham. You could see he always had the speed, power and athleticism. Plus he is a high character guy. His main issue was staying healthy, and getting the chance to play every day.
DeJong is a better glove than Diaz, although he looks like Grichuk at times at the plate. You hope he gets better, but less Ks and more BBs would have given me more confidence.
Weaver looks like he will be a difference maker for a few years, but also looks like a future TJ surgery guy.
A fitting end to our hopes. A 2-1 extra inning loss where an error put the winning run on second base. Matheny trotted out pitcher after pitcher despite each guy going well. Maddon stuck with his guy who was doing the job, which is probably the better approach in an extra inning game. Sort of a microcosm of the season, although we got good bullpen work tonight. Even Cecil had a great inning.