Cards in July – Buyers, Sellers , neither or both?

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  • #27493
    AvatarLoganAlpha30X7
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    So we trade for Stanton, then if we think that he’s going to opt out trade him for as much as we can get for him or something along those lines…or just go after Trout instead…

    #27498
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Hey, mud, I get your point, but how could the Cards trade Francisco Mejia for Donaldson? 😉

    (Kelly is BA’s third-ranked catcher, 51st overall.)

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by Brian WaltonBrian Walton.
    #27499
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    If any player signaled his intent to opt out of his contract, his trade value at that point would be zero.

    • This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by Brian WaltonBrian Walton.
    • This reply was modified 2 years, 4 months ago by Brian WaltonBrian Walton.
    #27504
    Avatar858booyah
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    Unless Stanton just completely tanks he’s going to opt out of his deal. So we’re only going to be on the hook for 3 years unless he just pulls a Heyward.

    Maybe Stanton never makes it here but everyone knows what we need. Some just assume to play it out with what we’ve got in house. I hope you like getting lapped by the Cubs and Brewers.

    #27505
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    Fowler
    Piscotty
    Grichuk
    Pham
    Martinez
    Bader
    Martini
    Sierra
    A. Garcia
    Arozarena
    Carlson
    Plummer
    Denton
    Benson
    Hurst
    Fuller
    Robbins
    Fielder
    Billings
    Jackson

    Who’s going to step up over time?

    #27510
    Avatarthejager
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    I believe a lot of the anxiety about a move right now, isn’t all about trying to win this year only.

    The issue is, that the lack of a middle of the order bat isn’t something we have solved for next year either. People can complain about why we make a move to win in this “horrible” or “terrible” year, but the fact is that if we want to compete next year, even if we throw away this season we will be staring the same issue as we walk into ST next year.

    Sure we could go after a FA signing…what Moose? Hosmer? JD Martinez? Do you really want to overpay for a 28/29/30 year old in the year before the best FA’s are available? And are any of them true team changers?

    Yes, we want to win now, yes we have some moveable pieces if need be, yes we have some oddly shaped pieces that have value. But many people’s desire for a move is not just to try to salvage THIS season, it is also looking forward to next season, and as much as tanking and fire sale will bring back some prospect, it wont make next year that much better either.

    Donaldson is a nice gap guy, helps us this year and next…then re-evaluate and see what the big 2018 offseason looks like…

    Stanton makes sense…long contract big money..but an opt out…but the length to the opt out and end of contract allows us to replenish whatever we lose…health is a concern as someone else brought up before too, but he is a star and a power hitter…and a good RF with a cannon arm… he might make going after a big FA in 2018 not happen as his money is huge…but then again he is the type of player who we would go after…(as much as he isnt my top choice if he was in that offseason FA class)…
    – and perhaps that is a good idea…maybe we wont be able to woo the top of the heap in that FA class, but maybe we can snag the other good guys in that class for more reasonable sums…that class is stocked and we may be able to find a relative bargain to pair with our already acquired superstar…

    plenty of other smart options fill into the controllable longer term solutions (Yelich, Ozuna, any other good young player, but those prices get steep fast)

    Perhaps another look woudl be Longoria from the Rays …again…he’s 31 now…signed until 2023 with ap retty reasonable contract…he hits for good average, decent power, and plays good defense…yes he is post 30 but perhaps targeting him would be another way to help now and later while also leaving us money to go after someone big this offseason (pitcher?) or in 2018.

    Short term solutions like Frazier etc. dont really interest me nor the club as they have said…however i think that comes with a caveat…if the price is low enough i think they would…JD Martinez for a low level pitching prospect? sure…same for Jay Bruce? sure…they could be useful if the price is right…but they dont seem to fix 2018 going forward…unless we really like JD mMrtinez and think we could get him signed in our exclusive window after a trade for him…i dunno…

    long winded as always….but buying and selling this year is not ONLY a reflection of THIS year’s chances and play…it can be a major factor going forward… most of you know this I;d think… arguments against buying now that are founded on THIs year’s poor chances just arent fundamentally solid as i have said and as the front office seems to indicate with their stance on rentals…

    #27527
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Thej…. one of your best comments. The Cards have some problems going forward. A lot of the anxiety is being caused by us STILL being in this thing. My way of looking at this is that we should be looking at someone for the next 3 or 4 years but someone good enough to step in now.
    Giving up a bunch potential stars for someone that could help us for this season doesn’t make sense. With a less than 50% chance of winning this division and most of the starters having “off” years is a recipe for “wait til next year”. That was something some were thinking about right after the Cubs won the WS. They’ve fallen back to the pack because their players are having off years also. I’d rather have a decent farm system going into ’18 than to lose playing into October this season AND having a weakened system going forward. Long term contracts still frighten me.

    #27533
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Way under 50% odds of making the playoffs. Baseball Prospectus’ current assessment is 21.9%.

    #27535
    AvatarCardsFanInChiTown
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    I’m confused why folks seem to think the Cards would have to give up a big prospect package for Stanton, from what I’ve read, it would take very very little (besides taking on all of his contract) due to his contract. I don’t see them doing that of course.

    I think Marcel Ozuna (2.4 years of control left) is the best option if they are looking long term, with the number of starter prospects that the Cardinals have, ship off a half dozen of them for him and call it a day. I’m in the opinion that Weaver needs to be the 5th starter ASAP with Wacha moving to the already crowded BP so he’s the untouchable one.

    Would an Ozuna for Grichuk, Bader, Flaherty, Junior Fernandez and Gomber be enough? Bader and Flaherty are the headliners in my opinion.

    #27536
    AvatarPadsFS
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    bccran
    Fowler
    Piscotty
    Grichuk
    Pham
    Bader
    Sierra
    A. Garcia
    Arozarena

    Who’s going to step up over time?

    Those are the ones that matter.

    #27544
    Avatar14NyquisT
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    Paid - Annual

    Cards ’19 OF = Bader-Arozarena-Sierra-Mercado-JAGarcia & bccran.

    #27551
    AvatarCardsFanInChiTown
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    Here’s what I’d do to remain competitive this year and give them a good shot(not that anyone cares)

    1) Trade for Marcel Ozuna (he starts in CF) – Flaherty, Bader, Gomber, Junior Fernandez and Gallen
    2) Trade Carpenter for a top 100 hitting prospect with power potential
    3) Trade Lance Lynn for a top 100-150 hitting prospect with power potential
    4) Weaver slides into Lynn’s spot in the rotation (I don’t think that would be much of a downgrade if any)
    5) Trade Oh and Rosey to the Nationals for Juan Soto (ranked around 90) and a wild card minor leaguer
    6) Call up Marco Gonzales to start over Wacha (likely an upgrade)
    7) Move Wacha to a possible closer role or go with a closer by committee or Tui
    8) Trade for JD Martinez (starts in LF/RF) – Grichuk, Alcantara, Oscar Mercado and a lesser prospect
    9) Call up Carson Kelly

    Lost: Wong, Lynn, Oh, Rosey, Grichuk, 7 replaceable prospects
    Gained: Ozuna, JD Martinez, two top 100 hitting prospects, Juan Soto, lesser prospect

    Lineup 2017 – Fowler(RF), Wong(2B), Ozuna(CF), JD Martinez(LF), Gyorko(3B), Piscotty(1B), Molina, DeJong(SS)
    Rotation 2017 – CMart, Leake, Weaver, Wainwright, Marco G
    Bench 2017 – Pham, Voit, Garcia, Kelly, Jose Martinez
    Bullpen 2017 – Wacha, Siegrist, Bowman, Cecil, Lyons, Tui, Brebbia, Duke, Sherriff, etc

    That team has about 100 times better shot of winning than the current one….

    Lineup 2018 – Fowler, Wong, Ozuna, Gyorko, Piscotty, Voit or FA 4 hole hitting 1B(Alonso or Hosmer?), Molina, DeJong/Diaz
    Rotation 2018 – CMart, Leake, Reyes, Waino, Weaver, Marco, Hudson, Lyons, etc
    Bench 2018 – Pham, Kelly, Garcia, Voit if they add a 1B, Martinez etc

    This was a lot, but all very realistic and it makes the team much better short term and long term. It also clears up some log jams in the system and gets some top tier hitting prospects in the minors.

    #27570
    Avatargscottar
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    Chitown, I think your ideas are very reasonable and probably line up with what DeWitt, Mo, and Girsch are thinking based on their recent comments. I get the feeling we are going to be active the next two weeks and they have said repeatedly they will look to move short term assets for long term assets but also be “open minded” about all scenarios.

    As a side note I read where the Cubs, after getting Quintana, are now after Sonny Gray. Surely they are going to have to deal from their MLB roster eventually, right? How many freaking top MiLB prospects could they have left? It irritates me that they can make trades w/o giving up guys like Schwarber, Baez, Russell, or Happ.

    #27643
    Avatarbccran
    Participant

    The biggest question right now is whether Piscotty and Grichuk are the answer. If not, then it’s Fowler, Pham and either Bader or a trade addition. I’m almost always for promoting from within, but granted there’s an exception situation right now. Doubt BD will go for Stanton, but Ozuna makes a lot of sense if they can get him. He’s be expensive in players given up, but worth it.

    #29065
    AvatarCardinals2016
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    Well, the Cardinals will go into the trade deadline under .500, which means SELL.

    #29136
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Cubs putting the hammer down, adding Tigers closer Justin Wilson to go along with Jose Quintana.

    #29138
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    Matheny feels sorry for bitter fans.

    #29141
    AvatarOnyxgem
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    MM isn’t a good manager on the field and doesn’t know when to shut his mouth off, can this clown be gone yet?

    #29148
    Avatarthejager
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    I think he is dead on. Lots of people i have heard and read on several forums and sites made up their minds on this year’s team after the rough beginning. Then we came back, they shut up, then we struggled again and they come back wailing, then we get back up again…but not get to the division lead and they still persist to hate on the team and give it no chance to win…

    this team is a few games out…yes they have been hovering for awhile in the same spot, but they have beaten good teams…and lost some games in stupid ways…but all the hate on the team for being under .500 thinly veils their argument…as before the argument was we couldn’t beat any good teams so being under.500 and winning the central was worthless because we couldn’t win in the playoffs…well..we have taken4 of the last 7 from the DBacks…swept the Rockies and beat the Nationals in the series….so i say…get in…and take your shot…

    but the defense seems to have righted itself, the rotation is pretty fantastic, even the bench has been pretty impressive…the bullpen has been shaky…lots of ups and downs throughout the year…i blame mostly Oh, for not being the steady presence he was last year….which is what this year’s team really needed and needs

    We have been hearing and reading SELL SELL SELL since the 1st month of the year…not too much of the likes of give them a chance…or let’s see what happens…it’s been pretty negative despite the outcomes and better play…

    you see it very clearly in the hate thrown at Wong…who, though injured right when he was playing well, was absolutely HATED at the beginning of the year…and even though he is having a pretty good year now no one wants to give him any credit….same goes for Carpenter…who YES…didn’t turn out to bethe #3 we needed…and YES the average is still a bit low…his on base skills are phenomenal and he has been playing pretty well since the rough start…Cecil too…..Wacha too….and even Wainwright..

    it even goes the opposite way on players like Gyorko…who has had a pretty good total year…but has really fallen off lately….

    Sierra was a nice spark…Bader was a nice spark…i’m not even totally sold on DeJong being much more than a spark that gets more playing time…though i am very happy and impressed with him and think he has a chance to be pretty good going forward…

    peopel hate on players…and think everyone BUT them can fix all the problems….I understand that view…i even hypothesize on it a lot… but putting on blinders to what this team has a chance to accomplish just because you made your mind up at the beginning of the season…or because they dont play defense and run the bases like the 80’s Cards….is pretty ridiculous…

    i have watched every game this year too…i see the mistakes…i also see the impressive fortitude they have had all year to keep themselves in the race…

    do they needa move or two to help? yep..i think they do…do i know what it is? nope i dont…but to yell SELL SELL HATE HATE THROW AWAY…is just lazy fandom… it’s easy to only root for your team when they are perfect or dominate…and if you dont have the will or desire to be a fan when things are rough then go away and buy a Dodgers cap or Cubs hat or whatever team will make you feel like you are invulnerable to having to actually care about a team that might not be perfect or win every game…

    Im worried we wont make a move right now because it isnt the “perfect” move…and i worry some about MOzeliak and Girsch not taking chances….this team is pretty conservative…and that has paid off in the long run…but every now and then you need to pull a Colby Rasmus deal when you see a team that is close and needs kick in the butt…

    Deal Lynn to Yanks for a couple good prospects (see if you can pry Betances away maybe…hard but maybe)

    Give away probably nothing of worth to the MEts for Bruce

    Snag Joe Smith from the Jays to help the pen…

    …call up Oakland (as they want a young upside CFer)…offer Sierra or Bader add in whatever it takes…get Gray and Alonso……i know everyone wants Gray…BUT we do have a surplus of young Cf’s with good upside…and we have the extra pieces to probably get him too…

    Gray takes Lynn place this year and next and is a solid good upside guy and good control…
    Alonso isnt perfect…and moving Carp to 3 or 2 isn the best… but Alonso adds some thump

    Two rentals and a long term solution…for right now…

    in the offseason use the young pitching depth and lack of NEED for it (with Gray added longer term and Reyes returning)…to acquire a big time hitter…like Stanton or whoever

    lots of moves in not much time…most definitely wont happen…but fun to think about how we go for it NOW and going forward

    🙂

    #29151
    Avatargscottar
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    My prediction is the Cardinals do a big flat nothing today and watch the Cubs run away and win the division by 15 games.

    #29152
    Avatargscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    It must be fun to be a fan of a club that has a front office that aggressive.

    #29153
    AvatarNJ315
    Participant

    This club has played 105 games. So far they are a .500 club. What is going to change in the nest 57 games by just adding a reliever? Not trading Lynn would be a major mistake. Not trading Rosenthal when his value is high would be another mistake. The comparison to 2011 has no merit. The 2011 was a good team and they had a legit bat in the middle. Matheny should stick to what does best…writing up bad lineups.

    #29159
    AvatarCardsFanInChiTown
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    Free

    I sadly agree 100%….

    #29160
    AvatarBrianpnoonan
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    Free

    I wish I could disagree.

    The front office is becoming increasingly detached from reality on several fronts.

    #29175
    Avatargscottar
    Participant

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    I can’t stand the Cubs but it must be fun to be a fan of a club with a front office so aggressive.

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