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Uh, oh. Molina has clearly lost it. ?
Haha! I don’t think so, but the quote seemed like an appropriate addition to the thread given the intense focus on stolen bases! 😉
Interesting comment on stolen bases for the the St. Louis Cards made earlier today : “The #STLCards have allowed 13 stolen bases and have not thrown out a runner trying to steal this season, only team in the majors not to do so.” … tweeted by Rob Rains, St. Louis @Cardinals beat writer, https://Stlsportspage.com
Pena keeps up last night’s performance, he may be the next contender as future full time catcher! A surprise, for sure, but it was great to see him rock it!
Brian i also am concerned because his numbers dropped defensively as he went to a higher level this season.I understand a learning curve and growing pains but people that think Knizner is going to jump in and take AAA by storm are likely to be disappointed.In a perfect world Knizner and Kelly both do well and next season Kelly backs up Molina and gets decent amount of playing time and Knizner gets a bench role as 3rd C/backup 1B/bench bat in Stlouis .
Throwing out runners is partially dependent upon the effectiveness of the the pitching staff in keeping a check on the movement and position of base runners. Also to be considered is the speed to which the pitcher delivers the ball to the plate and the type of pitch that was called. Add to that this factor: if the throw-down occurs, one has to look at if the infielder catches the ball and puts the tag down in a timely manner. It is a team effort, and if any part of the team effort is not perfectly timed and executed, a stolen base will occur.
One can point out the issue of stolen bases, but some of us will also focus on the outstanding blocking and receiving ability Knizner has consistently exhibited this season. He received high praise from Mattheny at Spring training as well as complimentary reviews from Wainwright last week. Making a statement that people who expect Knizner to jump to AAA are likely to be disappointed is a personal hypothesis, and we are all due our personal opinions. To clarify, as mentioned by others, Knizner has has only played at AAA for 1 game and been in the minor league for two seasons, so your assessment may be yet premature; time and opportunity will tell.
Additionally, in regard to your statement saying there is a likelihood that folks will experience disappointment if they expect Knizner to jump to AAA and do well , I will remind you that there is a contingent of people who expected Kelly to move up to St. Louis who have been disappointed, too. Kelly is a talented catcher, but offensively he has 6 years in the majors to prove he can bat and has just not done so. We all keep hoping it will happen, but he can’t seem to find the groove to bat much above .200 lately, or for that matter, for his entire career. I do sincerely wish both of these players luck in improving areas that need to be addressed. My projection is a bit different from yours in regard to the future, however. In a perfect world, Knizner and Kelly both do well next season, BUT Knizner backs up Molina and gets a decent amount of playing time and Kelly gets a bench role as 3rd C/position backup of some sort/bench bat in St Louis. As I said previously, only time will tell.So what was the excuse at Springfield? He wasn`t throwing runners out in Double A either.
Not making excuses, just relaying factual info stated by the announcers while the game was going on last night and commenting in response to the previous comment that mentioned BOTH Mujica and Knizner. Fault was on no one person in my opinion, and apparently the announcers felt the same.
A quick note on the Memphis game last night. 3 steals were off of Mujica/Knizner, and that makes 5 steals against Mujica in his last 10 games. Generally Mujica has pitched well, but when he has runners on, they apparently know he is easy to run on. Obviously a rough start, but I think he will be fine. I believe he will be average defensively with a plus bat.
Those watching the game on Milb.tv last night would have heard the announcers commenting about how the majority of the steals (5 of the 6) were more attributed to the pitching staff. I believe they may have actually said that only one was solely the fault of Knizner. Going to go back to review the archived video of the game to clarify, though.
There is no valid reason to deflate Martinez’ abilities because you feel that he doesn’t “deserve” to be promoted. Actually, I doubt he even sat in on the discussion by the higher-ups who took this approach.
14NyquisT, I will reiterate that I stated my opinion that Knizner “deserved” a promotion… and my basis for the statement boils down to production and stats. I did not purposely deflate anyone, just based my opinion on stats that can not be argued. You are the one that mentioned that Martinez had been at Memphis for one game and that he might have some success there and possibly become the “comeback kid”. He could have equally had success and been the comeback kid had he stayed at Springfield. AND, Knizner might have success had he been given the opportunity at Memphis. I know that I was not the only one scratching my head on the Martinez to Memphis move… so I will restate my comment from another thread. REWARD PRODUCTION. GIVE CREDIT AND RECOGNITION WHERE IS IT DUE. STATS DON’T LIE.
Wins and losses may not matter, and I agree it should be about making a better MLB team. Part of making a better team, MLB or otherwise, comes when you treat your people right…. AND reward performance. It just does not seem right to keep a kid down who HAS performed well.AND meanwhile, Knizner enters the MLB.com Top Ten Catcher’s List.
Also, the organization will want some experienced C depth if Kelly is moved.
As for Knizner, who is being handled a lot differently than Kelly was, the organization may feel that he is making strides defensively at AA and they don’t want to upset that progress. There’s no problem offensively.
14NyquisT, both of these prospects could make strides at either level AND moving one or the other would not upset anyone’s progress. Tell me why you think Martinez deserved the move to Memphis and Knizner didn’t. One has made steady improvement and the other, if he makes progress, may be in contention as the “comeback kid?” I am all for giving the underdog a chance when it is deserved. Knizner has already proven his chance is deserved. I welcome hearing your opinion on the current catching depth, so fire away.
P.S. Steve Bean was a supplemental first round catcher who got $700,000 to sign but never escaped Palm Beach, though he hit almost the same there as Martinez (.480 OPS vs. .477).
Yep, Bean’s average BA from 2012 to his release in 2017 was a mere .216. I guess it must be standard procedure for the organization to give catchers 5-6 years to develop and prove they can hit. Meanwhile, Knizner has raked, batting over .300 both years since he was drafted in 2016. At least we can agree that everyone is getting screwed over in the current dilemma.
Knizner got a short time to rest up last September before heading to the Arizona Fall League, where he got plenty of exposure and work. So I was not troubled by him not going to Memphis for a very brief time at the end of the season.
It is a very different situation now, however.
We need to see if Martinez becomes the next Jenner (never plays) and they keep starting Baron at Memphis. If that happens, then my criticism will return to why a .170 catcher is playing every day for a team in an offensive slump.
However, it sure seems like the best answer would be to start Knizner at Memphis until Molina returns. The extent the organization is going to avoid this is very puzzling.
Brian, my prediction is that Martinez will stay at Memphis and that Baron will back him up … and that Baron will eventually be released. They have to make sure that the 4th rounder earns that $600,000 draft bonus, especially since the pick value was $421.600. Politics, baby!
I agree with Brian’s input here.
So you believe that it is better to NOT promote a deserving player because he MIGHT have to go back down a level in a month – IF nothing changes in the interim?
That would be a bad way to run an organization, IMO. Set expectations properly up front and no one is surprised later. It is not hard to do.
Q: Why would that be any different for Martinez than it would be for Knizner? A: none.
In fact, at the end of minor league spring training, when Bader was called up to St. Louis at the last minute as an injury replacement for Gyorko, they promoted Arozarena to Memphis. One month later, when St. Louis’ and Memphis’ hitters were healthy, Arozarena was returned to Springfield. He held his own at Triple-A, saw what the next level was like and gained some valuable experience.
I cannot believe that was NOT the best path to take with Arozarena, even though he could not stay at the higher level, and I see no substantive difference between that example and the current situation with Knizner.
(P.S. This has nothing to do with Martinez. The fact is that Knizner is a better prospect and is further along.)
I will add that I won’t even touch who is the better prospect or who is further along. I am looking at production. Knizner has produced for 2 years offensively AND his defense has improved tremendously. Mattheny was quoted after spring training that Knizner was the most improved player at camp… and no one can argue that his stats the past two years have proven he has potential to get the job done, regardless of where he is placed. Anyone with half a memory will remember the abysmal stats that PB’s catcher had last year, but that was all kept hush hush and the Cardinals made sure their failing 4th round draft pick was kept under the radar with no discussion about how he needed to improve offensively. He though, got an undeserved call up to Memphis before the end of the season, and Knizner was left at Springfield. History seems to be repeating itself this season. Rather than rewarding Knizner for top notch offensive production and good growth defensively, the Cards seem intent on keeping a good man down to “promote” prospects that were drafted higher AND in which they organization has invested more bucks. They need to cease the little league politics and stop the inflated PR and excuses. Reward production. Give credit and recognition where it is due. Stats don’t lie.
Nice piece by Springfield’s PR on Wainwright and Knizner:
https://cardinalschirps.mlblogs.com/wainwright-on-knizner-i-think-hes-gonna-be-a-superstar-70f9ace39155Apparently, Wainwright’s opinion does not matter. based upon the roster moves made yesterday.
I just read the piece on Kelly on the front page news. The thing that is disturbing to me is that if Kelly does real well, he still goes back to AAA. If he fails, his trade value might just plummet. It may also mean the Knizner will have to endure the same treatment as a top prospect. Matters only get WORSE if they both do well. Being productive for the two prospects, in this case, becomes a negative for the organization. Will Knizner be added to the 40-man roster now? That’s another hurdle for the organization to jump. It has become a speculative and troubling situation for all involved.
This is not how top prospects get treated by the people that should be assisting them with their careers. “Carson and Andrew get yourselves ready for MLB…. but don’t expect to to play regularly for three years. You two are among our very best prospects so you will need to maintain your level of play until then. We’ll get back to you later….. AND don’t call us we’ll call you IF and WHEN we need you so don’t hold your breathe. As of now, we have a catcher that we just extended a contract to, but we KNOW he will get hurt, so stay on your toes.”
The catching position is unique in that you NEED one to play and you MUST HAVE one to be the backup and ideally he should play on a somewhat regular schedule so as to not allow him to get rusty.
In St. Louis we have a catcher that demands to play and won’t sit, of course, until “if” and “when” he gets injured. Uh, not a good situation to put a highly rated, young player. Don’t you think?
Kelly is at least getting a chance to prove himself. Knizner, on the other hand, is not being given the same opportunity. Talk for the last year has been that Knizner has improved tremendously defensively, and yet suddenly, when Kelly gets the move up to St. Louis, the organization comes out with the statement that Knizner still has work to do defensively? I am not buying it.. and it seems fishy to me. He is not MLB ready, but he deserves a go at Memphis while Yadi recuperates.
The kid who performed well in Springfield last year, performed at AFL, performed at spring training, batted for several weeks at the top of the Texas League, and was touted as a potential superstar by Wainwright just this week is still at Springfield, while his backup gets a call up to Memphis yesterday. As another posted commented in the minor league thread for 5/12, this is definitely a head-scratching move that makes one wonder what is really going on.
14NyquisT, you are absolutely correct when you stated “This is not how top prospects get treated by the people that should be assisting them with their careers.” …. and Brain hit the nail on the head in his “hope beyond hope” speculative musing in his member’s only article about the Memphis roster moves. Mind blowing and unconscionable, for sure.
Knizner should have gone to Memphis on May 6th as soon as the organization knew of the extent of Yadi’s injury and Kelly went to St. Louis. He performed well in Springfield last year, he performed well in the AFL, he performed well in Spring Training, and he was batting at the top of the Texas League for weeks …. and the talk has been about how much his defense had improved. I find it suspect that when Kelly moved up to St. Louis, there was suddenly all this talk that Knizner’s defense still needed work. I also suspect that Knizner was not moved to Memphis because there may be concern he could do well there AND it would create a problem about what to do with Kelly when Yadi returns. Just my two cents, but it is a shame that Knizner has not gotten a promotion because he has demonstrated that he he deserves one.
Winter hiatus is over and I am ready for Spring and some baseball! Looking forward to seeing how we did in our rankings and who the movers and shakers will be this season!
No Cardinal players in the starting lineup for the All Star Game tonight.
Game will be streamed live on MLB.com and the MLB Network.
https://m.mlb.com/news/article/260688958/starting-lineups-for-2017-afl-fall-stars-game/?topicid=15143745656. Joshua Lopez (A catcher who is also a consistent hitter with a .773 OPS)
57. Nogowski (At Springfield in 61 games, he managed a .295 BA with 21 RBI’s and a .760 OPS. He is a pretty good contact guy that maybe the organization feels could become a big bat with development. He was chosen as AFL taxi player candidate, which says to me that the organization must see something there. He’s played outfield so far at AFL..so maybe they see some potential as an outfielder.)
58. Evan Kruczynski
59. In McKinney
60. Arthuro Reyes
Pads, I’ve thought more about it and have a few more guys to recommend, so I will stay in another round (or maybe two)…… if that is okay.
49. Ortega
50. Julio Rodriguez – could have gone with another catcher -Lopez- but I have a gut feeling about Rodriguez.CariocaCardinal, your ranking and comment about these guys made me curious about the three because at least one of them is on my next round list, so I went back and check stats for this season so that I could be better informed. While they are at different levels in the organization they are about the same ages. I think your gut feeling has some justification.
Rodriquez @ 20 years old: .296 BA, 5 HR, 36 RBI, .443 SLG, .781 OPS
J. Lopez @ 21 years old: .285 BA, 5 HR, 27 RBI, .425 SLG, .773 OPS
D. Ortega @ 20 years old: .234 BA, 0 HR, 11 RBI, .234 SLG, ,597 OPSA trivia fact: Rodriquez and Ortega share the same birthday, June 11, 1997. Lopez is 21, born March 4, 1996.
