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Rosenthal
Oh
Tuivailala
Bowman
Brebbia
Lyons
Cecil
DukeTake Cecil and Bowman off that list and add Montgomery and you might be set.
Seems to me that over the past year or so, Helsley has been pretty underrated. In the off season count down on TCN, where was he ranked? In the latest MLB.com rankings, he’s rated below Reyes,
Flaherty, Hudson, Alcantara, Fernandez, Gallen, Hicks, Gomber, Woodford, Seijas, Jones, and Oviedo. Really? Rated below Jones? Who on the above list has outperformed him in the system statistically? That’s what I call being underrated.The pity is that Albies is a slightly built (5′ 9″ 150 lbs)
little 20 year old kid who was just called up from AAA Gwinnett a little over a week ago. Cecil should hang his head in shame.Perhaps he has a confict with a family function. I’m not going to read too much into things.
I heard from very high up in the organization that they miss both Oquendo and Holliday more than they thought they would. That’s all I know.I didn’t “blow by” your comment,
Brian. I had just heard other things from people I have talked to over the past year. And I’m not saying this sports talk radio person is right. You just have a different slant, and so does he.
I heard from people inside the organization that Jose wanted to stay in Jupiter.I’d like to go to shake hands with John Tudor. Mezmerizing soft throwing lefty who had pinpoint control. Good example that velocity isn’t everything. His 1985 season was surreal. 21-1 from May on.
I wonder if there’s more under the surface with Jose. I talked to a sports radio talk show host in St. Louis this week who said “if the DeWitts wanted Oquendo to be on the big league coaching staff he would be here”. That’s counter to what I’ve heard from others, but cause for thought. Caught me by surprise.
Question. Players can be analyzed statistically all day. How do you measure managers “statistically”, if not by wins and losses in the 10-15% role they have in that?
Record vs. cummlulative and comparative WAR for their team vs. their position in the standings might be good. It would take some work, but the statistics are there. When MM took that team to the WS in 2013, I wonder how the Cards accumlative WAR matched up against the Pirates and the Dodgers in the playoffs?
One poster on here used mathematics to measure results vs. expectations. That was great. Wish we could see more mathematical approaches like that. Sure beats personal opinions. Sorry to see NJ go. I wonder if he appreciated that mathematical approach that was offered by a poster.My only point is that all manager’s have their pluses and minuses. Managers are hard to compare and difficult to stack rank. Madden was a genius to some, and then he pulled that stunt with Chapman. He didn’t look so smart then. And he sure hasn’t looked so smart this season compared to last.
Everyone lauded Bruce Bochy.
He was the best of the best when he was winning World Series. Now he’s not held in quite so high esteem. Let’s be fair to these guys. And not call one of them “the worst manager in baseball”. They are all human, and subject to the resultant negatives….and positives….of that condition.Thanks, Brian. The same goes for politics. Issues can be discussed productively. Personalities cannot. People bashing leads nowhere.
I’m actually talking about me, Forsch. I’ve been strong in defense of MM and some people don’t like that.
They tend to jump on, and don’t want to engage in talking about Mike’s strengths and weaknesses. Or that Bill Dewitt has been acclaimed as one of the best owners in baseball, even with making moves like Heyward, Fowler, Cecil, and not securing a #3 or #4 hitter in the off season. Look at NJ’s post above. He’s just going to pack his bags and leaving.Brian likes to deal with facts. So do we.
1. Cardinal won-record under MM compared to
other Cardinal managers.
2.) Strength of teams (accumulated WAR) under various Cardinal managers and their records those years.
3.) TOtal WAR days lost to injury in 2016 compared to division rivals.
4.) Who the #3 and #4 hitters were going into 2017.One poster has been slamed, Brian that I know of and that was for defending our home town manager too much. He got ganged up on. A poster called him a 4 year old. Pretty inappropraite, don’t you think? I’ve seen comments about MM for several years now that are uniview. People dwell on his weaknesses and don’t really care to acknowledge his strengths. Productive discussions weigh pluses and minuses. That goes for almost any type of discussion.
I have take a balanced view. Have ackledged he makes managerial mistakes. Just don’t know how many he makes compared to other manager’s.
On this thread Madden and Bochey
have been mentioned.True – but the main topic of discussion over the off season was a middle of the order bat. As I recall, Mo acknowledged that in his various interviews.
The real question is what MM was provided as far as a proven #3 and #4 hitter going into 2017, especially after what happened in 2016 (accented when Holliday went down). Especially compared to other teams expect to contend – Cubs, Dodgers, Nationals, Diamondbacks, etc.
It’s mainly the players, but maybe MM should be given a little of the credit. Grichuk had to be sent down. Piscotty had to be sent down. Bader was sent down. Fowler was hurt. Wong was hurt. No proven
#3/#4 hitter. Etc.Good positive thread. Hope no one takes it down a negative path by complaining about something regarding Cards off field or on field management.
Voit coming up and helping when ranked as the 47nd best Cardinal prospect.
DeJong coming up in his second full pro season, hitting 3rd, and playing an unfamiliar position well?
Jose Martinez, a career minor leaguer, hitting a grand slam, and now batting 4th in the lineup.You couldn’t make this stuff up. As one GM told me regarding the Cardinals – It’s pixie dust.
