August 21, 2017 at 7:58 pm #31264
This is getting to be mind numbing, Forsch. Rosenthal has had his ups and downs. We’ll see how he does in the future.August 21, 2017 at 8:31 pm #31265
True bccran. My whole point. When he’s on, he’s very good. Just major inconsistency on his part.
I guess its time to let this thread fizzle.
Dodgers just hit the Pirates with a 5 run 7th to take a 5-3 lead. Granderson a grand slam the big blow.
r/RatAugust 21, 2017 at 9:06 pm #31266
Rat, I never said anything like that. But here’s a stat for you. Other than his last outing, Rosenthal had a 1.15 WHIP overall this season. Since being re-instated as the closer around the middle of July, he was 1-1 with 7 saves in 9 appearances. I didn’t count his last appearance since in 8 pitches he had a walk, a HBP and a hit allowed with a maximum velocity of 96 MPH. He was obviously injured and was taken out because of it.
In 2016, he did have shoulder issues. That is something that did affect his year. I will have to find the info where it was talked about how long he pitched with those issues. That would explain why last year was so out of line with his other years.
I will say that Rosenthal needs to learn when to talk to his coaches about having injuries.August 21, 2017 at 9:18 pm #31267
I started my last post prior to Rats’ post at 8:31. I got sidetracked for awhile before finishing.
I will be glad to drop this but will finish by saying that almost all closers are inconsistent. Even the good ones.August 21, 2017 at 9:42 pm #31268
Sutter’s WHIP from age 23-29.
1976 – 1.07
1977 – 0.86
1978 – 1.17
1979 – 0.98
1980 – 1.21
1981 – 1.07
1982 – 1.19
That’s consistency.August 21, 2017 at 10:22 pm #31270
Only the last 2 years are with the Cardinals and here are his blown saves from age 23-29.
1976 – 2
1977 – 9
1978 – 14
1979 – 10
1980 – 9
1981 – 7
1982 – 9
Consistent?August 21, 2017 at 10:44 pm #31271
Yawn…..good night, Forsch.August 21, 2017 at 11:47 pm #31277
Some reliever stats (including blown saves) have very dubious value imo. One example is how a save opportunity is defined. A blown save is charged to the pitcher who gives up the tying run, not the pitcher who put the tying run on base. This is inconsistent with how win-loss decisions are determined.
For example, consider a game where the visiting team enters the bottom of the 9th up by one run. The team’s “closer” (Pitcher A) enters the game and walks three straight batters to load the bases. The manager pulls the “closer” and inserts Pitcher B. Pitcher B then strikes out the next three batters, but on the third strikeout there is a passed ball which allows the tying run to score. At this point, Pitcher B has done an outstanding job, but is charged with a blown save, while Pitcher A is not charged with a save opportunity. Pitcher A can lose the game, but he can’t blow the save.
Comparing relievers from over 30 years ago to today’s players using these stats doesn’t compel me one bit. As stated earlier, Sutter was often brought into games in the 7th inning with the intent to close – completely different dynamics than we have with the roles of today.
Probably a better way to compare players from different eras is to compare how they stack up against their peers from within their era. Sutter won the CYA, finished in the top 5 for the CYA four other times, and had one other top 10 finish. He had five top 10 MVP finishes, and was a six-time all-star. Rosenthal really has nothing to compare with that, and I don’t think it’s because he’s a widely unpopular guy. Even Herzog stated that in some ways his KC teams were superior to his StL teams, but having Sutter in the bullpen was the difference in being able to win the WS. There’s a reason Sutter is in the HOF and Rosenthal will never realistically come close to achieving that.August 22, 2017 at 1:54 pm #31304PadsFSParticipantPaid - Annual
Closers were getting all kinds of undeserved accolades back in the 80’s and early 90s until Eckersly redefined the role.August 22, 2017 at 3:04 pm #31307
Euro, isn’t one of the important stats for a late inning relief pitcher how many inherited runners he allows to score? The fact a pitcher put a runner on base is important to evaluate the pitcher who put him on base. The fact another pitcher allows him to score is important to evaluate the pitcher who is in the game when the runner scores.
As far as Sutter goes, I think he was a great closer. I am only trying to look at the times that pitchers were with the Cardinals since all I have ever contended is that Rosenthal is one of the best Cardinals closers, ever. Not THE best but one of the best. He is not a pitcher who has almost blown a “million” saves. Sutter had some “warts” but he overall was a good closer. I remember many times when he would come into a game that he either blew the game or allowed runners to almost blow the game. However, he was still good. When Rosenthal is healthy, he has been good as well.
One minor point about Sutter’s Cy Young votes. In 1981, he finished 5th but there were only 5 pitchers who received votes. He received 1 3rd place vote and finished with 1 point out of a possible maximum of 120. That year, Sutter was the only NL reliever receiving CY votes but in the AL there were 2 relievers who recieved votes and both had many more points. Rollie Fingers actually won the CYA. In these times, relievers do not receive the same recognition from CY voters. Even Mariano Rivera didn’t receive much attention from CYA voters in the last 8 years of his career.August 22, 2017 at 3:42 pm #31308
Guess those closers like Sutter, Eckersley, Gossage, Fingers, etc. must have pretty decent if they’re in the HOF. Kinda tough to tear their body of work down.August 22, 2017 at 4:12 pm #31309
BC, have I said anywhere in this whole discussion that they weren’t good?August 22, 2017 at 4:26 pm #31310
Euro, Herzog had Doug Bird and Mark Littell as his closers for the first few years of his Kansas City term. Al Hrabosky was the closer for the last 2 years. Dan Quisenberry came up in his last year but wasn’t his closer very much. I would say there was quite a difference in his closers between the Royals and the Cardinals.August 22, 2017 at 5:08 pm #31311
forsch, yep…what a reliever does with inherited runners is ultra important, although not so much for today’s pure closers. They generally start innings. My main point with that was how asinine the stats for blown saves and save opportunities can be, as in my example. Closers who only start innings don’t have to deal with that aspect of it. Plus, sometimes they are let off the hook because the manager yanks them before giving up the tying run, even though they have created the mess which turns out to be the primary cause of the subsequent blown save.
There was even some of this going on in Rosenthal’s last game. Rosenthal, Duke and Brebbia combined to lose the game in the 9th, but imo Brebbia was the best of the three. From a practical standpoint, I would say he contributed the least to blowing the lead. Rosenthal was charged with the two runs that tied it and Duke was charged with the losing run, and thus the loss. To accent how asinine and inconsistent the stats are, Duke was credited simultaneously with a “hold” and a loss this game. I also felt bad for Brebbia because Yadi (or whoever) did him no favors by calling three straight sliders against Betts to end the game. I felt like a hard one inside on the 2-2 pitch had a better chance of putting him away as his fastball had looked pretty good that night.
I’m not following your point about the relievers you listed that KC had under Whitey. He said what he said about Sutter.August 22, 2017 at 6:01 pm #31312
So……is there any word on Rosenthal’s injury? Wasn’t he flying to California to get a 2nd opinion? Anybody have any scoop here?
r/RatAugust 22, 2017 at 6:39 pm #31314
Langosch tweeted this afternoon that Rosenthal has met with Dr. ElAttrache. The Cardinals are reviewing the results of both exams, with an announcement of the next step forthcoming Wednesday.August 22, 2017 at 8:19 pm #31316
Euro, you said in your post that Herzog said his Kansas City teams were a little better but Sutter was the reason he won a WS with the Cardinals. He certainly didn’t have the same quality closer with Kansas City as he did with the Cardinals.
I am reinforcing the point that he had a better closer with the Cardinals. I have never argued that Sutter was not a good closer.August 22, 2017 at 9:22 pm #31322
Gotcha forsch31, thanks for clarifying.August 23, 2017 at 4:57 pm #31405
Well, it is being reported by the Post Dispatch and the MLB Cardinals site that Rosenthal will have Tommy John surgery.August 23, 2017 at 6:06 pm #31408
FWIW, I hate to see that. He will miss 2018 but hopefully when he returns to the mound in 2019 he may have better command of his pitches.
Just wondering, how does this affect his contract situation?
r/RatAugust 23, 2017 at 6:21 pm #31411CariocaCardinalParticipantPaid - Monthly
If it is up to me, I non tender him. If he wants to sign for 3/9 with incentives for games finished I’d talk.August 23, 2017 at 6:54 pm #31416OnyxgemParticipantFree
That is really do bad, when Rosey took over closers roll the pen was doing better now it is back as a cluster again.August 23, 2017 at 7:34 pm #31417
What’s the maximum cut we can give him, 20%?August 23, 2017 at 8:28 pm #31419Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
Duke returned in nine months. For Rosenthal, that would be late May. Obviously that is best case. With free agency ahead, he should be motivated to show well next season to cash in fully in the fall of 2018.August 23, 2017 at 9:13 pm #31431
Offer him 2 years, $9.25 million with an option for a 3 year at $9.00 million with a $1 million buyout. We basically give him the maximum salary cut for the next 2 years but he gets to rehab and regain value before hitting free agency. He probably won’t get any more than that from anyone else.
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