August 20, 2017 at 8:06 pm #31166
BM, I understand that the more innings a pitcher throws in a game, the more opportunity to get a blown save. There is also the consideration of the more often a reliever pitches, the greater the chance the pitcher can be tired. Also, how many saves did Sutter have because he threw multiple innings but wouldn’t have had one if he wouldn’t have came into the game until the 9th (lead grew to greater than 3 runs). He also had many 3 inning saves where the lead was greater than 3
I think Rosenthal overthrows in a one inning situation and throws too many fastballs. He seems to do better in his stints where he knows he will be throwing several innings. He had a terrible year last year. However, he has not almost blown “millions” like Rat believes and is one of the best relievers in Cardinals history. I am not saying he is the best but he is one of the best.August 20, 2017 at 8:59 pm #31169
As a major leaguer, Rosenthal has walked 143 batters in 325 innings pitched. Take a look at his WHIPs over the past 4 years.
2014 – 1.41
2015 – 1.27
2016 – 1.91
2017 – 1.20
Those aren’t the numbers of a great closer.
So Rosenthal has allowed 1 more walk for every 4 innings pitched than Sutter did. He also has struck out 1 more batter for every 1.5 innings pitched than Sutter did. They were even for hits per inning pitched. I would also guarantee you that the defense those early 1980s Cardinals had made a big difference for Sutter.
In 2016, Rosenthal was bad. Overall, he hasn’t been. He is one of the best in Cardinal history.August 20, 2017 at 9:30 pm #31174
Good closers do it successfully over a long period of time. Look at Hrabosky, Worrell, Smith, Eckersly, Izzy, etc. Rosenthal has had two good seasons. Just two.
That’s it.August 20, 2017 at 10:35 pm #31175
He’s been good 3 out of the last 4.
Also, if Rosenthal were to leave the Cardinals now and go to another team, he could be considered one of the best in Cardinal history if he is a good reliever for another team for many years? Sutter, Worrell, Hrabosky, Eckersley and Smith were closers here for around 5 years at the most.
If you are calling Isringhausen a good closer for us, Rosenthal would be, too. I can remember the uproar from posters about him every time he came into a game. He was looked at about like Rosenthal.August 20, 2017 at 10:50 pm #31177
However, he has not almost blown “millions” like Rat believes
Oh yes he has Forsch. Oh yes he has. You are flat out wrong here. He has come oh so close to blowing saves many times. I’ve watched them with my own eyes many, many times over the last 3-4 years.
Can you say 2014???August 20, 2017 at 11:38 pm #31188
Rat, I would love to have you try to prove the point, especially since you use the term “millions”. However, I know you won’t try or be able to. I have read many posts from you over the years where you remember things, only to be proven wrong, disappear and say the same thing again somewhere else. Then we get to play “whack-a-mole” for awhile.
What I will point out to you is that he saved 88% of his save opportunities. He only had 6 blown saves (2 losses) out of 51 opportunities. In 32 of his 51 save opportunities, he faced the minimum number of batters or 1 over the minimum. So about 66% of the time he was not in a position that he almost blew it. He faced the minimum number of batters in 21 of his 72 appearances. He faced 1 over the minimum in 21 other appearances. He did have a high walk rate but using some metrics, he added about 2 wins to the team. These are looking things up quickly. I imagine I could go further with more time.
My point, as it has been all along, is that the memory isn’t always as reliable as the facts. As an example, Al Hrabosky is being credit for being one of the Cardinals’ good closers yet he only has a 73% save percentage as a Cardinal.August 21, 2017 at 7:43 am #31198
Rosenthal as a major leaguer –
2012 – 0 saves
2013 – 3 saves
2014 – 45 saves
2015 – 48 saves
2016 – 14 saves
2017 – 11 saves
Where do you get he was a great closer 3 out of the past 4 years?
Career saves –
Lee Smith – 478
Eckersly – 390
Sutter – 300
Isringhausen – 300
Worrell – 256
Rosenthal – 121
Rosenthal isn’t even in the same league with them.August 21, 2017 at 8:09 am #31208Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
I don’t have a dog in this fight, but wouldn’t a fairer comparison be to show their results through age 27, rather than their entire careers? Rosenthal could have another decade of pitching still ahead.August 21, 2017 at 8:37 am #31210
That’s true, but remains to be seen. I don’t believe he should be compared to the other top closers yet. And the statement that he has had 3 good closing years out of the last 4 couldn’t go unchallenged.August 21, 2017 at 8:38 am #3121114NyquisTParticipantPaid - Annual
The reference to dog fighting should not be a welcomed remark and veers off from political correctness. Dog fighting is one of the most explicit examples of man’s inhumanity. Excuse my going off-topic.August 21, 2017 at 8:44 am #31212
Dogs can get in a fight when two people with dogs on a leash pass on the sidewalk. It’s just an expression.August 21, 2017 at 9:10 am #31215Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
My, oh my.August 21, 2017 at 9:24 am #31221
BC, Rosenthal has not been the closer the whole year this year. MM used Oh as the closer until he “discovered” that Rosenthal was better at it. He’s had 13 save opportunities this year and converted 11 of them.
If you want to use the number of saves in a year as a measure of how good a reliever is then you need to take another look at Hrabosky. His save totals per year for the Cardinals: 0, 0, 0, 5, 9, 22, 13, 10. I know that was another era but that is not outstanding numbers. You are the one who brought up Hrabosky as a good closer.
Another point: I have never said anything about Rosenthal being one of the best closers ever. I said he has been one of the best Cardinal closers, ever. Not THE best. ONE of the best. I agree that he has to do it over a little more time to be considered one of the best closers in the game, ever.August 21, 2017 at 9:26 am #31222OnyxgemParticipantFree
Easy he has been great in, 14,15 and 17…he has been a great pitcher for us this year.August 21, 2017 at 9:38 am #31223
Through their age 27 season:
Smith – 113 (160 with Cardinals, all after age 27 season)
Eckersley – 3 (66 with Cardinals, all after age 27 season)
Sutter – 133 (127 with Cardinals, all after age 27 season)
Isringhausen – 42 (217 with Cardinals, all after age 27 season)
Worrell – 74 (129 career saves with the Cardinals)
Hrabosky – 59 (his career total with the Cardinals)
Rosenthal – 121
Rosenthal is 5th on the Cardinal all time saves list.
August 21, 2017 at 10:00 am #31227BrianpnoonanParticipantFree
- This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by forsch31.
Whether or not you think he is inconsistent, his numbers do not merit that level of vitriol.
He is at worst “good”. He hasn’t had a season where he put us on his back in the playoffs at this point but he is only 27.August 21, 2017 at 11:25 am #31233
“Onyxgem wrote……’Easy he has been great in, 14,15 and 17…he has been a great pitcher for us this year.'”
Great in 2014?????
I guess you didn’t watch the same Cardinal team in 2014 like I did. Granted he got 45 saves but he came within a whisker of blowing a TON of them. Am I the only one that remembers how many games he almost blew???August 21, 2017 at 11:37 am #31236OnyxgemParticipantFree
Rat you are the one that keeps not coming up with any FACTS what so everAugust 21, 2017 at 11:51 am #31237
Rat, I gave you the facts above. In 2014, he faced the minimum number of batters or 1 over the minimum in 2 out of every 3 possible save appearances. Do you have anything other than memory that says he about “blew millions” of games?
Or are you going to continue to just troll with your “memory”?August 21, 2017 at 12:31 pm #31242
Sure, he’s one of the better closers in Cardinals history in his short tenure (2016 excluded – way excluded). No disputing that. But his tenure as a closer is short compared to others. And he lost his job to Oh until Oh had problems. Let’s see how he holds up in the future, both in both health and productivity.August 21, 2017 at 3:17 pm #31249wagee12Participant
LOL at political correctness.August 21, 2017 at 4:32 pm #31251
Sure, he’s one of the better closers in Cardinals history in his short tenure (2016 excluded – way excluded). No disputing that. But his tenure as a closer is short compared to others. And he lost his job to Oh until Oh had problems. Let’s see how he holds up in the future, both in both health and productivity.
That’s all I have ever said: he’s one of the best closers in Cardinals history.
In 2017, he did not lose the closers role. MM handed the role to Oh to start the season and never gave it to Rosenthal until the middle of July. Rosenthal then took control of it. I understand that MM probably took into account Rosie’s terrible 2016 but he didn’t base his decision on 2017.August 21, 2017 at 5:38 pm #31254
Yes, he lost his closer’s job in 2016. He gave up 48 hits and 29 walks in 40 innings. He lost his job after only 2 years as a successful closer. That’s why some of us can’t get too excited about calling him “one of the best closers in Cardinals history”.August 21, 2017 at 7:26 pm #31261
He lost the closer’s role in 2016 not 2017. He was injured during 2016 which affected his pitching. MM handed the role in 2017 to Oh, despite Rosenthal being healthy. Once Rosenthal was handed the closers role in 2017, he took control of it until he was injured again.
I don’t care if you are excited about calling him one of the best or not. IMO, when healthy, he is one of the best and you already alluded to that earlier.August 21, 2017 at 7:36 pm #31262
So, Forsch31 old buddy, are you saying that when Rosenthal is healthy he pitches great? And that he only pitches bad when he is injured?
If that’s the case he must have major recurring injuries on a regular basis. Then he must recover from these injuries on a regular basis. Then a few days later he suffers more injuries, and then he recovers from them. That has to be the way things are as inconsistent as he is.
Maybe the next time he pitches we should see if he is injured first to avoid another one of his many bad outings.
- This reply was modified 2 years, 3 months ago by Ratsbuddy.
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