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I was leaning towards selling and if so, a complete blow up of the team. The managerial change changes that for me. We should still be sellers for our expiring contracts (if we can get anything for them) Probably only Norris really nets you anything. I might look to move Ozuna as well if anyone is interested but otherwise I am not sure how you can justify paying him $13-$15 million as an arb3 next year. Other players I would give a chance to see how they perform sans Matheny before making decisions in the off season. Of course I would still listen to offers on anyone, I just wouldn’t actively shop people.
I think that 2018 is finished with. Time to rebuild… DimWitt started the changes now drain the swamp of all the swamp-scum that Mozeliak has presented us with as a division contender.
SELL BABY SELL.
Cardinals have never been mentioned as a seller but if they start second half poorly (and they open with 5 at wrigley) they could become one. They have mostly underpaid kids and overpaid vets but 1 trade candidate could be Bud Norris, who’s gotten some pub lately.
— Jon Heyman (@JonHeyman) July 15, 2018
I say sell and have felt this way for some time. This team has eroded so bad that I believe that aside from the starting pitchers, Molina, Hicks and Norris we could replace all the rest with players from Memphis and have just as good results. Many of them have nothing more to prove at Memphis and having the balance of the season to adjust to the major leagues would help us next year.
I know, it is much easier for fans to make drastic decisions than it is for people with a real stake in the team.
I know many are dying to see Molina replaced but he is the one guy on the team that I want at the plate in a game situation. Also still solid on defense but not still gold glove. And I don’t fault him for wanting to be in the lineup every day.
I wouldn’t give up on Ozuna yet. He came into the season ranked the best left fielder in the game by the major league network. It is not uncommon for high profile players to underperform after a big trade. Stanton didn’t make the all-star team. Not even in the special vote. Possibly the highest paid player in the game.
DeJong is probably a keeper, if not at shortstop certainly at second or third base. Munoz and Bader are my kind of ball players.
One of the problems is that a guy like Jose Martinez is valuable to only an AL team but the season ending playoff teams have virtually been decided and you have no one desperate to improve and a whole league of sellers.
Definitely get rid of J Martines (maybe even Carlos), Fowler, Holland, Gregerson, Lyons, Cecil, and possibly Pham (who may not return much because of the eyesight issue). You say we would have to eat a lot of contracts. We are effectively doing that now by them playing so poorly.
Bring in Hudson, Ponce and Gomber and let them get some major league experience under their belt. Bring up Machado and O’Neil and Wisdom and give them the rest of the season to adjust to this level. At least those guys can catch the ball.
One of the problems in rebuilding I am not sure we have to front office ability to identify the right kind of players to bring in. Their recent track record is a little scary.
Would love to see the organization move the following, Fowler, Pham and Carlos Martinez. That’s three locker room problems gone and Martinez will never, ever be an ace for any pitching staff.
Speaking of Martinez, this is NOT a trade rumor, but it will not stop some from making into that. The NY Post is reporting wondering by “unnamed executives” that if the Cards decide to be sellers, might they make Martinez available?
I think it is a fair question.
https://nypost.com/2018/07/15/cardinals-pitcher-enters-radar-as-yankees-and-more-seek-help/
If we’re trading Cmart, the Yankees’ offer had better start with Gleyber Torres or there’s no use in continuing the conversation.
It would be ironic if the Cards picked up Gleybar Torres. Maybe he could torment the Cubs for the next 10-15 years.
I was thinking about the CMart to Yankees idea this morning actually. I don’t think they would send us Torres or Sheffield but I would think Andujar and Frazier would have to be on the list. Chance Adams might be another prospect to target.
CMart and Gyroko to Yanks for Andujar and Frazier or Adams. I would strongly consider that deal.
Andujar<Dejong
Frazier<O’NeillThat would be a hard pass for me. 6 years of one of the top 15-20 pitchers in the game, at worst, for cheap? Sorry, you have to give up something that hurts for that. Torres and Sheffield plus a couple lotto tickets maybe gets it done.
CMart’s contract is so valuable, and even if he isnt an ace it doesnt matter with his reasonable contract. He would be a big piece and would fetch a huge return.
I am not sure what id ask for the from the Yanks, and im not sure id consider them unless they put the big names on the table
I think we only move him for no miss style hitters. We produce plenty of pitchers, and can find diamonds in the rough well. I’d consider a young dominant reliever like Betnaces, but outside of that kind of guy i dont want any pitchers.
Im not even sure i inquire on OF talent either, even if we moved several of our players, we not only have young talent but we have MORe young talent coming in the OF and we tend to prduce good OF talent pretty regularly.
Same goes for 2b
No miss prospects at 3b, SS and maybe 1b
who are the targets we would even consider to be worth giving up such a valuable piece?
Torres sure
Vlad Jr
Devers?
Tatis Jrwho else?
Would love Martinez to be traded. Think he is a knucklehead. Don’t get all bent out of shape..I think my kids are too. But he is so immature. If he could bring back value I would be all in.
Love to see Wong and Fowler gone too. Fowler would cost us some of his salary and wong won’t bring back much of anything.Andujar<Dejong
Frazier<O’NeillThat would be a hard pass for me. 6 years of one of the top 15-20 pitchers in the game, at worst, for cheap? Sorry, you have to give up something that hurts for that. Torres and Sheffield plus a couple lotto tickets maybe gets it done.
Andujar doesn’t have anything to do with DeJong. Andujar would play 3B and would be a big long term upgrade over Gyroko.
As for O’Neill being better than Frazier, that is debatable but again it really doesn’t matter. Play them both. An OF of Frazier, Bader, and O’Neill might be pretty good in a couple of years.
It wouldn’t hurt to ask for Adams or Sheffield also.
Also might add that Goold mentioned in his chat yesterday that the CMart to the Yankees idea is certainly a credible thought and a possibility. He usually doesn’t say such things unless he has heard it in other meaningful circles.
None of Dejong, Andujar, O’Neill or Frazier are elite prospects or likely to be elite going forward. Dejong is likely to be the best of the bunch, really.
Andujar has a horrid plate approach and will struggle to be more than average without improving. Frazier has had one good minor league season and is pretty much the same kind of tweener CF/corner guy that we have had more than enough of lately with Grichuk, Pham, etc.
If we are trading a top SP for 6 years we had better get a sure fire star coming back, not more slightly above average clutter.
That’s why I’d never trade Carlos for even 4 of a team’s top 10 prospects unless there were elite players involved. Sale and Quintana returned 3 top 10 in the league prospects, and Carlos probably slots closer to Sale in value, considering controllable years, than Quintana. So I’d start with a top 10 position player and top 20 pitcher, another top 100ish piece and go from there as an asking price in a trade. So for the Yankees that’s Torres and Sheffield as the starting point.
I would take Andujar and Sheffield in a heartbeat. Frazier might be more debatable but those three would be a strong package. So much so that I don’t think the Yanks would do it.
I think Goold also said that in his view a Carlos trade woudl be really close to the Sale deal, if not equal to the Sale deal
I do think Betances coudl be a target outside of the several named prospects
Torres
Betances
FrazierTorres would be a big loss to them but they got him for almost nothing in the end, AND they have Didi and several others for 2b…and we coudl even offer up Gyorko in the deal too to give them a short term cheap option(maybe we coudl sneak Sheffield in or add Andujar)…Betances is replaceable for them and they are tied to Chapman for a while we coudl even add in NOrris for their stretch…the 3rd prospect is tough but i think you go high
Torres, Andujar, Betances
for
CMart, Gyorko, Norris, Poncedeleon/WoodfordI agree on Andujar looking a bit weak with plate discipline, but he is still young
IMO..if we could get Andujar Betances and Gleybar…id offer up a lot… they woudl inject real life into the club, they are young and talented and cheap, and with a few other moves (Wong, JMart, Fowler, and Pham gone) would change the face of the Cardinals…and woudl be worth the costliness of the losses incurred (let’s say CMart, Gyorko, and maybe even a better prospect or two)
go bigger?
CMart, Weaver, Norris, Gyorko, Woodford
for
Torres, Andujar, Betances, Sheffielda 2019 team of:
-Wacha,Mikolas,Flaherty,Reyes,Hudson….Sheffield/Gant/Ponce/Gomber
-Betances,Hicks,Leone, Gregerson,Lyons,Cecil,Brebbia,Tuivalala
-Carp 1b, DeJong 2b/SS, Torres 2b/SS, Ozuna LF, Andujar 3b, ONeill RF, Yadi C, pitcher, Bader CF
-Munoz, Mercado, Pena, Voit/WisdomThat would be a pretty big facelift
to get all those yankees would be tough to impossible…maybe you have to also offer up Hudson in that deal or even FLaherty…but even in that case why not? we have money, we can find another Mikolas or decent FA SP or even go with Gant while the next youngster comes up
we need a cornerstone player…Torres can be that guy, pairing him with Andujar only furthers the youth high upside movement to be excited about…add in DeJong and Oneill to more future firepower as well as Carp and Yadi and Ozuna not feeling like they have to save the team and you have the makings for a pretty nice new look Cardinals that woudl still have financial options to make moves if needed or wanted, and while losing our best young horses from our stable of young pitchers woudl be a gut check…it wouldnt be for naught and woudlnt mean we coudlnt refill them
The Yankees are trying to win a world series in 2018 so it would be difficult to convince them to subtract from their mlb roster. I don’t see any way they would part with Torres. They would wince at parting with Andujar but we might be able to pry him away. There is a deal somewhere in there to be made if MO and company want to go big.
If they want a young, controllable pitcher who is in the top 20 pitchers in the game, with more in the tank…they’ll give up what they need to get it. For me that’s Torres or bust. If you make the assumption that the Cards make Carlos available and that the Yankees are the only trade partner that’s gonna bid…sure, maybe they could get a deal. But they could easily have a bidding war on their hands. No doubt the Dodgers could beat the Yankees’ offer if they wanted, and maybe the Astros or Red Sox would like another star pitcher.
I’ll also mention that Andujar is Martinez level bad in the field right now. He projects to below average defense despite a good arm, mostly due to poor range/speed. His OPS is good due to slugging in the midst of an incredible lineup, but I see a lot of Grichuk there if he’s put where he doesn’t have such protection. I’d just be leery of making him a centerpiece. I’m sure you feel differently, gscottar…I see him as more of a back end top 100 prospect and not as good a player as Paul Dejong going forward. Which does matter as I look at guys like Montero and Gorman coming up.
This is from today’s chat on MLBTR with Steve Adams.
Big Ben
3:40 will the Yakees trade Miguel Andujar or GleyberTorres
Steve Adams
3:40 Torres no. Andujar I can at least see, but I don’t really expect him to go.JJ
3:57 Carlos Martinez is the perfect for Yankees right? 26 yr old 3 yrs of control and salary is affordable at $11.5mil
Steve Adams
3:59 He’d be a perfect fit for just about any team. If you’re comfortable with the Yankees giving up guys like Sheffield, Andujar, Frazier, Loaisiga, Florial — that top top tier of talent in the org — then sure. But it’s going to be really costly to add him, and I don’t expect the Cards to move him in the end.
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