Buyers or sellers?

[Bw52]

Forsch and Stlcard…
OBP while RISP..
LMAO…talk about cherry picking .In what world is Pham comparable to Ozuna?Only in your Phamfoolery world.
You showed your complete cluelessness by calling Pham the teams best player.Then you compound the nonsense by stating Pham was the Cards best position player the last 2 years.I would trade Pham for either one of the prospects I mentioned.

Forsch….I don’t know where you get your numbers but 7 hits is not going to make up the 35 point difference in their RISP averages.Keep wishing.

[forsch31]

Simple math, BW52.

217 ABs with 65 hits (8 hit difference) is a .300 BA
217 ABs with 64 hits is a .295 BA.

So yes, it would have made up the difference.

[forsch31]

Also, Bader’s career slash line with RISP:

.182/.349/.273/.622

By your own standards, that is terrible.

[thejager]

Read their posts. They lay it out pretty clearly. You just don’t want to read it because you are admittedly bias against Pham. Which you have said elsewhere.

The opponent to your opinion have been very clear. And you don’t seem to comment on their points just brushing them off regurgitating the same opinion over and over a denying anything anyone else says or tries to point out.

I don’t know what sources you have hatvhave floated that CLE trade but it sounds a lot like drive time radio or some other forum of people making up ideas. But I’d be happy to be wrong with some sources and names.

You are bias and acting like a person who is blinded by that bias. If you aren’t then you should know that is how you’re coming across. So if you don’t like that interpretation of your thoughts I’d suggest trying a different method if your intention is to change minds or change the interpretation of your communication

Or you could keep doing what you’re doing and alienating yourself on this topic as you seem to be in the minority.

You have every right to keep banging your head against the wall whether anyone agrees or not. Maybe to you we are all just dumb stupid people.

But if that’s the case what do you care if we agree with you or not? Or if we have a higher opinion of your communication? If we are so bias ourselves then why keep attacking?

Is it because you care about us? If that is the case and your altruism is the motivator to enlighten us the wouldn’t you be Walli to change your delivery and communication to better serve your desired outcome and NOT attack everyone he same way over and over? Ty anew tactic right? Since the one your using now is obviously not working it seems a bad choice to continue it if you care.

Or is it because you want to be “right”? And not just that but right at the expense of everyone else. Not just right but everyone else is wrong and you are the rightest?

If that’s the case you should coninue your similar communication and continued fruitless repetition as it has no effect or care for anyone else and is a delusion to think it would ever change anything or anyone. So, continuing a pointless debate in a pointless way seems appropriate. It just will never achieve what you want.

Or maybe I am entirely wrong. That is entirely possible. I am wrong all the time. I interpret what I see and form my opinions and try to understand them and as I get more information I change them and move forward. Not always in the most positive ways.

Still my main point is that bW I think you’ve explained your point. And admitted your bias. And that doesn’t mean you’re wrong but that isn’t enough for several other posters. They have formed their opinions and feel just as justified in them. If you want to change them to see your opinion as being better or right then it seems a new tactic might be the best maneuver. If you don’t the I don’t see how anyone is going to gain any kind of joy or revelation from this communication outside of trying to yell louder or last. And that is just childish.

But then again. That is my opinion. And I am justified in having it but maybe it is entirely wrong.

[forsch31]

jager, I definitely would have ended this a long time ago if the assertion wasn’t that Pham is only AVERAGE. If only he would come around to the realization that Pham is definitely above average. I would be willing to bet that Pham may be slightly worse than last year by the end of this season but not a lot. I anticipate around a .850-.875 OPS.

I also do not like metrics for defense. If DRS says Pham has been a -6 for the year and Ozuna has been a +1, I don’t believe it is useful. Almost every game I have seen this year, I have been concerned about Ozuna’s defense in some fashion.

[Bw52]

You Phamfans will not change my opinion.I think its funny that Forsch spits out Stats like a adding machine but yet he disses a Stat that disagrees with your view.Pham is nothing more than a average player who played above his head last season.Reality is setting in and that twhat my eyrs tell me.You guys dont like it but thats the way i see it.Forsch i cretainly have seen nothing to make me change my mind about Pham.IMO Forsch you are extremely optimistic feeling Pham will have a big turnaround.I feel; what you see will be what he does for the rest of the season.Season totals 16-20 HRs 60-65 RBI .260-.270 BA 150 Ks.Nothing special at all.JAGER-

i certainly have no dislike for any poster here.In my eyes from what i have seen pham has shown me that he is average.Nothing more.Thats my opinion.I do admit i don`t like him because of his BS comments about how the organization screwed him over and how he failed to accept the blame for his baserunning blunders.That just tell me Pham is a ahole person in my view.My opinion of his ballplaying skills tell me he is average .Nothing more.My opinion.My view.Now that opinion ruffles some feathers but thats the way it is.

[Bw52]

Forsch pulling some more woulda coulda phamtom 65 hits out of thin air.Guess what Forsch Pham didn`t get those hits did he?

[858booyah]

Just my 2 cents but I never thought of Pham as a true CF’er.

Also one would say Ozuna is in the same boat if indeed both played above their heads last season. I really just hate Ozuna and if they make one deal it should be him being sent packing. Guy has not been what was advertised. Just an overrated defended by the eye test and although the bat came around a bit I don’t see him touching .800 ops until he torches some September call ups. Too little, too late by then.

[Bw52]

At this point of the season close to halfway it`s time to really consider looking ahead.Not a rollover surrender tank job but makes some moves that are moving forward instead of treading water in a probably futile attempt to edge into the playoffs.There are some veterans who could be attractive to other teams in contention so why not explore those options?This team needs a infusion of young hungry talent.Cards have several OF prospects playing well at AAA and some other positions guys who are doing well there also.Pitching -why not Dakota Hudson,Daniel Poncedeleon? Something has too change and IMO waiting for some older veterans to suddenly return to prime form is running in place getting nowhere.

[Bw52]

858boyah-Ozuna has a career RISP .298.This season he was at .310 RISP.His power has been down but he has been the teams 3rd best RISP guy behind Gyorko and Jmartinez.

[forsch31]

Bw52, if you had paid attention to my posting at this site and its previous incarnations over the last 10+ years, you would know that I have never put much stock in defensive metrics. How do they make their measurements? Do they take into account where a fielder was positioned at the time a ball was hit? Do they take into account the route taken to the ball? etc. I have NEVER wavered on my position on defensive metrics.

As best I can tell, you are hanging your difference between Pham and Ozuna on RISP. Do you really think 1.17 hits per year makes Ozuna that much of a better hitter with RISP? And it’s not a phantom 65 hits because he has 57. My point just goes to show that 1.17 additional hits with RSIP per year over Pham’s first 6 years in the majors would put him at a .300 BA with RSIP. That probably makes a difference of 10-12 more RBIs in his career.

If Pham is average, the Cardinals have no hitters that are above average except maybe J. Martinez. We all know how bad his defense is without even trying to look at defensive metrics. Since the definition of OPS+ says that over 100 is above average, Pham at 115 for 2018 and 127 for his career is above average. Ozuna is at 105 for the year and 114 for his career.

In your figures for Pham you think he will only have 16-20 HRs for the year? He already has 12.

[forsch31]

I keep flipping back and forth about tearing this team down or buying. I am convinced that we have to be sellers to be buyers. I think we have to turn the roster in a major way while acquiring for the present and future. No rentals unless they come cheap.

Definitely trade:
Fowler plus some major money ($21 million)
Carpenter
J. Martinez
Weaver/C. Martinez
Kelly
Wong

Other players to use in a trade:
Pham
Gyorko
Weaver/C. Martinez

Call up:
O’Neill
Mercado
Wisdom
Hudson

Acquire:
1 elite player for the INF
1 well above average player for the INF

We would have a SP rotation of:
Mikolas
Flaherty
Hudson
maybe one of Weaver/C. Martinez (or an additional one of the following)
Gant/Gomber/Poncedeleon

Wacha would take a SP position when he gets healthy

Lineup:
C – Molina
1B – ???
2B – ???
SS – ???
3b – ???
LF – Ozuna
CF – Pham or Mercado or Bader
RF – O’Neill or Bader

One infield position would be filled by DeJong at any of the INF positions. Wisdom could be used at either 3B or 1B. We could acquire 2 or 3 INFs. I want good fielders and hitters with some team control acquired.

We sink or swim with what is left after the dust settles. I think this revamped team could compete. This would also allow us to go after Machado or Harper in free agency.(pipe dream, I know)

[stlcard25]

Trade the entire infield? Ok then. That certainly would shake things up though.

Carlos would certainly fetch a huge return if traded. The “his trade value drops with every start” crowd are living in dream land. He’s been durable and good, he’s young and signed to a very very friendly deal for a long time. He’d fetch something between what Quintana (a top 10 and back end top 100 type with two lotto guys) and Sale (two top 10 MLB, a top 10 team and lotto) went for. It would probably be closer to Sale, really. Think the Yankees would be falling all over themselves to make that trade? Lol.

As for Pham…a much better trade partner, if we’re going to purge him, would be the Twins. CF is a black hole for them, thanks to Buxton. Pham would be a huge upgrade and help them for three years, on the cheap. Pham probably wouldn’t return Royce Lewis, but Nick Gordon or Alex Kiriloff would be a good starting point. Add on a couple more prospects and at least we get something more than a below average AAAA SS.

[forsch31]

MAYBE we could “sweeten the pot” from our side to pry Lewis away?

I just feel we have to overhaul the team but we can do it and still be contenders. DeJong is versitile enough to play 1b or 2b. He also has a bat thats profiles well as a 1Bman. I think it is time to give Wisdom a chance.

Although, I would love to try to pry Arenado from the Rockies, he only has 1 more year of team control. Welker would be a great acquisition, though. However, we have Mendoza and Montero that are looking pretty good, so far.

Maybe it’s time to do some Whitey Herzog 1980-1982 wheeling and dealing!!

[thejager]

a teardown like proposed seems more like an offseason shift rather than an inseason one…can you show me ANY team that has done that level of trading and maneuvering within a season? I cant think of any, especially noen to the level of the level of players you included… just doesnt seem feasible regardless if i agree or not

thinking on trading Pham…i think TOR lines up well for a CF..and they seem to like our players…I dont want to get into Donaldson…but maybe Pham for Stroman? give or take a prospect

I think Pham’s loss to our lineup would be a pretty big hit…especially when we need consistent hitters…but i think MErcado Oneill all are coming and maybe one of them can provide some help…

maybe add a trade for Beltre from TEX to complement Stroman (coming off injury within the week it seems but young high upside and controllable)

Or you could nix Beltre and target DOnaldson and Stroman in a Pham deal..adding a quality prospect or two into the mix…IF Donaldson is healthy on offense and defense enough to help…

but i dont deal a controllable good performing player unless i get one back…

[Bw52]

Whichever route the FO picks something needs to be done to fix this team.Maybe some guys have gotten complacent and some guys just got old in a hurry.Others played down to normal levels.Whatever and whoever the various reasons and players are the fact remains that as is this team is taking on water and starting to flounder.As others have stated and i agree these players should all be considered to be traded if the right deals can be made.

Matt Carpenter-he has been a good player,now declining,get something while you can
Jose martinez-born to DH,if you deal Carpenter then Keep JMart
Kolton Wong-time for another direction,too expensive to keep only for his glove
Dexter Fowler (somebody please take him)
Tommy Pham-30 year OF with injury/eye issues plays OF on a team deep in OF prospects
Jedd Gyorko-like him bu still listen to offers
Carlos Martinez-only if it is a overwhelming offer
Brett Cecil- ithink he will bounce back but maybe a change of scene is needed
Bud Norris-he has been a lifesaver but sell high

Miles Mikolas-only if the team gets a deal it can`t refuse

[forsch31]

I don’t think the tear down I mentioned has more than a 3% chance of happening and that is being generous.

Maybe JMart could be included in a Toronto deal. He would make for a good DH with good team control.

[Bw52]

Forsch-Doesn`t Toronto already have several DH guys already? Smoak,Steve Pearce,Kendry Morales? JMart is the perfect DH and surely some AL team would be interested.I was thinking along the lines of TB (for one of their young arms) although TB is supposed to be hard to bargain with.

[forsch31]

Smoak is playing 1B. Morales and Donaldson are the only 2 players with 10 or more starts at DH. Donaldson has been hurt and Morales is not hitting.

[Cardinals2016]

JMart to Toronto makes a lot of sense.

And they seem to like ex-Cardinals players…

[thejager]

I dont really see how JMART fits in TOR…SMoak plays 1b and MOrales is DH and cant do anything else…and I’d have to think Donaldson will get DH duties as he attempts to come back from injury too..and that doesnt even take into consideration Tulo potentially coming back

I though Jmart might be a solid fit for the MAriners who are pushing hard as he may be a more stable 1b offensive option than Healy…but Cruz cant play anywhere else so DH seems out…

PErhaps the Red Sox might get in on JMart…JRMartinez could shift to LF and let Benintendi go to CF putting BRadley JR on the bench…plus they’d have to JMart’s!

Not sure what we look at from them as they wont want to give up their prime prospects and i dont know what they have that woudl help us right now

I agree Tampa might make a bit of sense…maybe Kelly + JMart + POncedeleon for Archer and Stanek…as long as Archer is healthy…I might take a sniff at Ramos for being our backup bench catcher for the stretch just to have a more impact bat….Rays have Cron and Bauers at 1b and DH, JMart coudl step right in and take Bauers spot…I liek Kiermaier and MAllex too but they seem like what we already have a lot of… I’d consider Cron if he didnt strike out so much…but those 16 HRs still count for something…but alas i dont see it… Archer alone with Stanek would be helpful…but that woudl gut there already thin rotation down ever farther even with adding POncedeleon in…i dunno…
The Angels coudl be a sleeper for a 1bman/DHer…Pujols and Jmart coudl swap time depending on Pujols need for rest…Phtani is no guarantee to come back and play and if they want to have any shot at the playoffs they need another bat…Blake PArker has been solid RP for them…but we woudl want more…and i dont know what they have really that coudl help us now

tough call…I think Gyorko makes for an intriguing sell to a contender as a righty power bat with great versatility for the bench

I am just not sure who needs a DH that woudl want an older guy even with control and low cost…he seems more of a contender type get rather than rebuilder…

[gscottar]

I really think this team should sell. We are stuck in mediocrity and going nowhere. Sometimes you have to take a step backwards in order to move forward. I think this front office assumes that the fan base would revolt if we sell some pieces. I disagree, I think this fan base is smart enough to see that we need to change course and re-tool a bit for 2019.

I would make everyone available except some obvious players like Reyes, Flaherty, Hicks, etc….

[Brian Walton]

I originally put this on the Front Office thread, but I think it really fits better here. At face value, this suggests they will try to do both – buy and sell. Just getting rid of some of the redundancy would seem to be a step in the right direction. Getting better players would be even better, but more difficult without trading prospects.

Mozeliak said this afternoon that #stlcards may look for "baseball trades" at deadline. What that means: Swapping from #MLB roster, possibly, for moves that change team now, aid team in 2019. An example: Moving a RH bat for a LH bat they don't have, a RH reliever for LH they want

— Derrick Goold (@dgoold) July 14, 2018

[Brian Walton]

Interesting that the Cubs trade strategy is the opposite of the Cardinals. Two teams in different places.

Jed Hoyer was asked about the idea of using major leaguers in a deal for pitching: “We’ve shown that we’re really loyal to this core group for a reason. They’ve earned that loyalty over 3.5 seasons. Our focus is on supplementing that group.”

— Jesse Rogers (@JesseRogersESPN) July 15, 2018

[CariocaCardinal]

I was leaning towards selling and if so, a complete blow up of the team. The managerial change changes that for me. We should still be sellers for our expiring contracts (if we can get anything for them) Probably only Norris really nets you anything. I might look to move Ozuna as well if anyone is interested but otherwise I am not sure how you can justify paying him $13-$15 million as an arb3 next year. Other players I would give a chance to see how they perform sans Matheny before making decisions in the off season. Of course I would still listen to offers on anyone, I just wouldn’t actively shop people.

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