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If we take Seager back, we might be able to do a 1:1 trade, which is the Cardinals preferred ratio in trades. But that swap would have to wait until DiPoto trades Bruce.
If we were to try to get Bruce, we’d probably have to send a prospect + cash.
Yes, Robert, I think we are in agreement. The Heyward deal worked out, the Fowler deal (which was a free agency signing caused by their unwillingness to trade) did not.
The only way I would trade for Goldschmidt would be a Greinke + Goldshcmidt for Fowler + Adolis Garcia + pitcher (Hudson or Weaver) + Wacha. Maybe throw in another mid-tier prospect as a cost of unloading Fowler.
Wacha only has one year left, but the Diamondbacks need at least 2 starters, thus Weaver or Hudson as well. One year left on Wacha equals one year left on Goldschmidt. Fowler gets sent back to make the marginal cost of Greinke about $18 million per year. If you count on Greinke to be your 5th starter for 3 years at $18 million per year, that’s not too bad. Adolis Garcia is not core to our plans, so I’m okay letting him go, and I hope he does well.
I’d then go to work trying to get Kluber from Cleveland…
Oh…and signing some LH relievers…
Here is my take: trades are supposed to be win-win (a philosophy Theo Epstein employs).
You make trades to address your needs and wants, and in turn, satisfy the other teams needs and wants.
You expect some of the players you give up to go on and have good careers. You want them to. It makes more teams willing to trade with you. If you never give up players that succeed in the big leagues, why do I want to trade with you?
If the Cardinals say they are going to give up pitchers to obtain fielders, do it. Don’t back out of a trade and commit $82.5 million to Dexter Fowler because you don’t want to give up an asset you think will be productive.
So, here is one reporter speculating the Cardinals line up in a Seager/Fowler swap
Oh, the other reason for Seager is that he bats left handed, and the Cardinals have stated they are looking for a left-handed bat.
Now that Jay Bruce is on the Mariners, that gives them two left-handed hitting bad contracts for which the Cardinals can deal Fowler.
The Cardinals better figure out how to send smoke signals to DiPoto.
I’m sorry, but at some point owners have to be responsible for themselves. Most of them are billionaires or in ownership groups that account for billions.
I can understand Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Kansas City, Minnesota.
I can’t understand Tampa, Miami, Oakland, Atlanta, Houston, etc. These owners just game the system to receive welfare. There would actually be more money for all of baseball if these teams tried to build winners rather than accept welfare handouts.
Correct. Though we read early in the day Dan Jennings was non-tendered, I am pretty sure it was before the Cardinals announced Shreve had been tendered.
Regardless, the Cardinals have clearly stated they were going after LH relief pitchers, because the left-handed relief pitchers they had last year were not good enough.
So, why take up a roster space with someone you’ve acknowledged you are seeking upgrades for when you have the entire market to negotiate with?
The Cardinals will probably move at their typically glacial pace, and by then, their top five choices will be off the market, and they will “make do” with whatever is available.
Is Seager trending down? From his career year, yes. But his 2017 offensive season was roughly in line with career numbers from an OPS perspective. Defensively, well you know how much I believe in defensive metrics as they are currently formulated, but the only year that was really out of line was his career year, to the positive.
Yes, Gyorko outperformed him in 2017 as well.
Yes, releasing Fowler straight up is what many of us WANT the Cardinals to do, but evidently DeWitt has given the order to ride out Fowler’s contract or trade him for something that is not a bag of balls…
When this list originally came out, it had Colome on it.
As you can see, the list is quite dynamic.
Who else will the Mariners trade?Because at the time they were signing Shreve, Jennings and Avilan were being non-tendered. To me, they are fairly sizable upgrades over Shreve.
Not all those 40-man roster spots are equal. You have some players that are valuable and you won’t give up a roster spot (Carpenter, Molina), some that are negative who we really should move or cut bait (Fowler, Cecil) and some that are fringe guys that it’s best to use in a trade (A. Garcia, Shreve)…
I am not in the Pro-Seager camp (but I am in the Get Rid of Dexter Fowler Camp), so I will take a stab at your questions, forsch31.
1. Other than last year and 2011 (his rookie year), he’s been as good, if not better than Gyorko.
2. Seager is only making roughly $6 million more than Fowler (over the next three years), so from a financial perspective, there is no reason for the Cardinals to include more. Now, if you are talking from a prospect perspective, they need a DH, and if Jose Martinez is what it takes to get Fowler off the team, so be it. We can use the extra roster space to sign a LH reliever.One other point, if we did acquire Seager, maybe we trade Gyorko for a reliever we can use…
Now, this really irks me too
Keuchel rejected a qualifying offer from the Astros in favor of reaching the open market, but because the Braves received revenue sharing and didn’t exceed the competitive balance tax in 2018, they’d only lose their third-highest draft pick in signing him.
Atlanta is the 8th largest MSA and 8th largest television market.
Not to mention, they are owned by Liberty Media.
Geesh. Heads need to roll in MLB’s corporate office.
C2016, please explain why it would hurt to keep Shreve through spring?
I missed this earlier… I would rather have the space open to sign higher impact players as they come open. Avilan, Jennings, Strickland, Parker all would have been a higher priority for me than Schreve.
Of course, I also would have tried to wrest Colome from Seattle, but oh well.
OK Robert, here is a counterpoint:
In terms of trading for Jason Heyward, they got LUCKY it worked out so well for them, it definitely wasn’t by design. They did, allegedly offer Heyward more money than the Cubs did, after all.
Shelby Miller had a 3.02 ERA in his one year in Atlanta, and put up 4.0 bWAR (as much as I hate that statistic). He was subsequently traded to Arizona for Ender Inciarte, Dansby Swanson and Aaron Blair.
That was a trade by design, not necessity.
Now, for years, the Cardinals said that when they needed a position player, they would simply trade pitching for that position player.
But in the year they signed Dexter Fowler, they tried trading for Marcell Ozuna, who had been on the trade block both that year and the year prior. The Cardinals walked away from that deal, because the Marlins wanted Alex Reyes.
So, we signed Fowler for 5 years, $82.5 million.
We kept Alex Reyes, who underwent surgery in both 2017 & 2018. The Cardinals knew he had a sprain in his arm at the time they nixed the trade to Miami. Reyes has accumulated two years of service time for the Cardinals, while nary contributing to the big league squad.
We wound up trading for Marcell Ozuna a year later, only now he was also injured, the result of diving for a ball while playing Gold Glove defense for Miami.
So, the Cardinals made a trade for Heyward out of desperation, the Braves traded Shelby Miller for a much larger return by design.
The Cardinals refused a trade for Marcell Ozuna because it would have meant parting with their top prospect, only to see that prospect injured two years in a row (knowing he was already injured at the time they nixed the trade) and ultimately trading for the same player a year later, only now he too was injured.
Brilliance. Absolute brilliance.
He deserves a shot in the Spring to prove he can still play at a quality level and earn a spot on the club.
I don’t think he deserves a shot, but yes, I agree we are likely stuck with him for two more years (they will probably be willing to cut him at some point in his 5th year).
I think he could be a good fourth outfielder, albeit an expensive one.
The problem is, the Cardinals are going to insist on rolling him out in the outfield, even if O’Neill is better. Just like they did last year. Contract size matters, performance does not on the Cardinals.
I do agree the Cardinals engage in prospect hoarding. It’s good while you are trying to build your roster, it’s bad when you have replacements at every position in AAA and still don’t pull the trigger. The last two years, the Yankees started making trades in August of players that they likely wouldn’t be able to protect in the Rule 5 draft, because they got tired of losing so many players.
Right now, the 40 man is full of average players. We need upgrades. And we can’t start signing free agents until we clear the roster.
I believe the Cardinals should act like a big market team and take advantage of smaller revenue (I refuse to call them all smaller market teams) and every year target players from teams that need to reduce payroll. The Cardinals have the revenue of a big market team, they need to act like it.
Last year, I thought the only way to get Stanton was to basically swap outfields and 2nd base.
This year, I think the only realistic way of moving Fowler is to take on Greinke’s salary. If the Cardinals were to do that, I’d either be asking for a prospect like Blaze Alexander back or having Goldschmidt included in the deal.
Cleveland is at their financial limits, they have holes to fill, and they have a high-priced pitcher the Cardinals should want. Who cares if we have to trade 4:1? We can’t sign relievers until we clear spaces anyway!!!
Just pull the trigger once in awhile.
The idea we can build entirely from within is absurd.
But the Cardinals have only made TWO trades of multiple players for stars in Mozeliak’s entire tenure, and I just don’t see any vision from the front office to make this team better in any meaningful way.
I would hate to see the Dodgers if they got Kluber
So, Cleveland needs a catcher now after trading away Yan Gomez. They also need outfielders. And they want to trade their starting pitchers for what they need.
Maybe a Corey Kluber for Luke Weaver + John Gant + Carson Kelly + Jose Adolis Garcia?
Clear a few 40 man spaces then start signing LH relievers…
Marc Topkin at least sees Jose Martinez as an option for Tampa Bay…
I admire what the Brewers are doing. The Cardinals, when they see young players showing indications of playing at a major league level, say, “Let’s give them 3-4 years to see how they do.”
The Brewers had several young outfielders perform in 2017. What did they do? Went out and got Lorenzo Cain and Christian Yelich, and won the division in 2018.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see them make a trade for one of Cleveland’s starting pitchers, and sign somebody like JA Happ.
And, yes, the Brewers are a small market team, and I’m perfectly fine with them participating in revenue sharing.
So, this thread has been derailed by talk of Mathney and Schildt.
Let’s get back to the real crux of the problem – Fowler!
How do we get rid of him, if the front office won’t simply release him, and won’t make any upgrades to the outfield until he is gone?
Yeah, I’m hoping the front office doesn’t sit on their hands like they normally do when they should be making moves right now…
Make some trades, clear some roster spaces, get the LHP’s we all know they are going to sign…
Right now, there are enough players out there that will fit their “affordable control” mantra for relievers they should be acting. But they can’t do so without doing some trades, because the roster is full.
Can anyone find the number to Jerry DiPoto?
