The Front Office's place in all of this chaos.

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  • #59845
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    14NyquisT
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    I know its long but this a comment posted on PD Goold’s Q&A concerning the status of the Cardinals and why it is as it is. IMO, a superior read.
    ************************************************************************
    Nick Giunta
    Mo knew about Ozuna’s shoulder issues, yet knowingly made the trade anyway. Not one, not two, but three players Mozo decided to part with, ALL CURRENTLY HAVE MORE HR’S than Ozuna. Yes, both Matt Adams, Randal Grichuk, & Stephen Piscotty all have out homered Ozuna, the bat Mo claimed would solve our middle of the order production problems.

    Going further back when Mo traded for RP Jordan Walden as part of the Heyward deal, Mo knew about Walden’s shoulder issues. Walden spent 95% of his 2 yr/6 mil contract with the Cardinals on the DL.

    Mo knew when he ill advisedly gave Holland 14 mil, that Holland had struggled during the back half of last season with the Rockies. Yet ignored those warning signals, making the deal anyway. That’s why the Rockies who spent 52 mil on Wade Davis, which was the largest single amount EVER given to a reliever in MLB history, had zero interest in spending a dime on Holland. Holland just might be the biggest bust signing in the history of the Cardinal franchise. And that’s saying a lot for a GM like Mo, who has made countless blunders in recent yrs.

    Mo knew when he signed RP Gregerson, that he was coming off the worst season (by far) of his career. Yet he ignored that. Gregerson has spent 90% of this yr on the DL, and he has not one but two different injury issues. Mo signed the overweight Cincinnati Red refugee Brayan Pena, to the largest contract he had ever received before, 5 million. That only for Pena to spend 95% of his time on the DL. Pena was released before the 2nd yr of his contract, they didn’t even bother to attempt to extract something from that investment. Which reminds one of another Mo brilliant signing for 2 yrs Ty Wigginton, who was released after the midway point of the first year, of his 2 yr contract.

    Mo knew when he signed Mike Leake to the foolish 5 yr/80 mil dollar contract with the no trade clause, that was BY FAR the largest amount any club had ever paid Leake. And Leake rewarded Mo’s brilliance by losing 60% of his games for the 2 yrs, going 16-24 for his Cardinal career. Mo had to pay a bounty of 33% around 15 mil to get rid of Leake, with 3 yrs still remaining on his deal when he left. Only then to have Leake once again begin to win the moment he arrived in Seatlle, just as Leake had for yrs with the Reds prior to coming to the Cardinals.

    Mo know when he decided to dump SP Marco Gonzalez, this upcoming year would be the first in many where Marco was healthy. Last night Marco won his 10th game of the season, he’s currently 10-5 pitching well for the apparent playoff bound Mariners. 10 wins matches the Cardinal rotation leader. And Leake has 8 wins himself. Leake and Gonzalez combined to date, are 18-11 thus far this season with the Mariners.

    Getting back to Adams, Mo knew Adams had finally gotten himself in the best playing shape of his career. Mo inexplicably kept Adams for the yrs he was out of shape, enduring weak production. Only then to trade/give away Adams for a single A minor league nobody, who appears destined to remain a minor leaguer. Adams is currently a .283 hitter with 13 hr’s for the Nats, and he has missed part of this season on the DL.

    Mo knew when he signed Dexter Fowler to another 5yr/80 mil/no trade blunder of a contract, that again it was by FAR more than any prior club had ever before invested in Fowler. The Cubs who had just won a World Series with Fowler, did not think enough of him to come close to offering him that much, either in yrs or millions. The Fowler mistake unlike the Leake mistake where it only cost Mo 33% in losses on the total amount owed, will look silly by comparison. Mo will probably have to eat 80-90% of the near 50 mil, he still owes the near worthless Fowler. And Fowler can’t even be traded, until he first waives the not trade clauss, in the same manner Leake did. Many players get additional compensation, when waiving a built into the contract no trade clause.

    Mozeliak was responsible for appointing Chris Correa to the head of the Cardinal farm system. Correa rewarded that confidence by hacking into the Houston Astro proprietary data system, and is now serving a 4 yr prison sentence. And for any of you who believe Correa was the only one in the Cardinals org in the “loop” on that situation, I’ve got some ocean front property in Arizona to sell you.

    Speaking of knowing or not knowing Mr. DeWitt needs to be included in this morass. Apparently Mr. DeWitt does not know, that a GM is accountable for his roster construction. And I would suggest anyone come up with another GM worldwide in professional sports, who has made more poor roster choices than Mo over the last 3 yrs. Name the individual–anyone. And not only did Mo not lose his job, this dysfunctional org actually promoted Mo last yr on his recent record, and that horrific body of work. That qualifies as certifiable lunacy.

    #59854
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    14NyquisT
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    This train can’t keep sliding backwards. The FO has derailed the whole organization. Going forward I’d like to see an OF of Bader, O’Neill, Arozarena and Mercado right now at any expense. The ’18 season has been blown up anyway. It improves the defense 110%…. let’s see what we have.

    #59860
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    858booyah
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    I thought it was reported that Bowtie didn’t want Holland and was basically out ranked.

    If they knew Ozuna was banged up or any red flag came up then why not amend the deal?

    #59864
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    858booyah
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    Nyquist

    Why don’t we reexamine Ozuna’s shoulder and shelf him or have him go under the knife and play Munoz, Martinez, Bader? I mean if his shoulder is that bad or getting worse who knows how long it could drag into 2019 if he has to have a procedure done. Wouldn’t be smart to have him examined and get something done now?

    I mean could anyone have a problem. with this besides Fowler and Pham?

    #59865
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    14NyquisT
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    The deal was made in Dec. ’17, Its now July ’18… the FO never moved on it, just swept it under the carpet.

    #59866
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    14NyquisT
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    There is so much negativity regarding Cardinal baseball right now. It gets worse with every single embarrassing loss.

    #59871
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    PadsFS
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    Perhaps the people that are positive are just sick of getting drowned out by all the negativity of the vocal minority?

    #59873
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    Onyxgem
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    Or maybe the negativity group isn’t the minority anymore.

    #59875
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    14NyquisT
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    Onyx…. I think you nailed it.

    #59876
    EuroWolf
    EuroWolf
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    Cardinals FO has been horrible in recent years. You can’t fully discuss any negatives about Matheny without putting it into context vis-a-vis to the FO failings. The list is long.

    #59877
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    PadsFS
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    Mo knew about Ozuna’s shoulder issues, yet knowingly made the trade anyway. Not one, not two, but three players Mozo decided to part with, ALL CURRENTLY HAVE MORE HR’S than Ozuna. Yes, both Matt Adams, Randal Grichuk, & Stephen Piscotty all have out homered Ozuna, the bat Mo claimed would solve our middle of the order production problems.

    Ozuna is a streaky hitter. Does anyone really think he will not bounce back ala Carpenter? Using homeruns as a barometer is a joke. Secondary to that point is that he references Grichuk (awful season), Piscotty (needed to go home plus we got Munoz and Schrock out of the deal), and Adams (given every shot in the world and never materialized, was available to every team this winter, and has no place with Martinez and Carpenter)

    Going further back when Mo traded for RP Jordan Walden as part of the Heyward deal, Mo knew about Walden’s shoulder issues. Walden spent 95% of his 2 yr/6 mil contract with the Cardinals on the DL.

    Mozeliak did not know of his issues. This is spinning. Walden pitched perfectly fine in SP and April that year. He had a checkered past just like guys like Siegrist.

    Mo knew when he ill advisedly gave Holland 14 mil, that Holland had struggled during the back half of last season with the Rockies. Yet ignored those warning signals, making the deal anyway. That’s why the Rockies who spent 52 mil on Wade Davis, which was the largest single amount EVER given to a reliever in MLB history, had zero interest in spending a dime on Holland. Holland just might be the biggest bust signing in the history of the Cardinal franchise. And that’s saying a lot for a GM like Mo, who has made countless blunders in recent yrs.

    Here’s another (shocker) First the Rockies did offer Holland a $17.3M deal as the Qual Offer. Second, Holland did not struggle in the second half, it was in August after cutting his finger, but let’s just put the GM in the worst possible light over a $13M, one year contract.

    Mo knew when he signed RP Gregerson, that he was coming off the worst season (by far) of his career. Yet he ignored that. Gregerson has spent 90% of this yr on the DL, and he has not one but two different injury issues. Mo signed the overweight Cincinnati Red refugee Brayan Pena, to the largest contract he had ever received before, 5 million. That only for Pena to spend 95% of his time on the DL. Pena was released before the 2nd yr of his contract, they didn’t even bother to attempt to extract something from that investment. Which reminds one of another Mo brilliant signing for 2 yrs Ty Wigginton, who was released after the midway point of the first year, of his 2 yr contract.

    $3M! $5M! $5M! What was Mozeliak thinking! Gregerson also had an excellent FIP. Let’s see how he does when he returns from injury.

    Mo knew when he signed Mike Leake to the foolish 5 yr/80 mil dollar contract with the no trade clause, that was BY FAR the largest amount any club had ever paid Leake. And Leake rewarded Mo’s brilliance by losing 60% of his games for the 2 yrs, going 16-24 for his Cardinal career. Mo had to pay a bounty of 33% around 15 mil to get rid of Leake, with 3 yrs still remaining on his deal when he left. Only then to have Leake once again begin to win the moment he arrived in Seatlle, just as Leake had for yrs with the Reds prior to coming to the Cardinals.

    I can’t for the life of me understand the point here. So Mozeliak is an idiot for signing a winning pitcher like Leake and an idiot for trading away a winning pitcher like Leake, but because Leake sucked as a Cardinal, he’s an idiot for that performance as well? What?

    Mo know when he decided to dump SP Marco Gonzalez, this upcoming year would be the first in many where Marco was healthy. Last night Marco won his 10th game of the season, he’s currently 10-5 pitching well for the apparent playoff bound Mariners. 10 wins matches the Cardinal rotation leader. And Leake has 8 wins himself. Leake and Gonzalez combined to date, are 18-11 thus far this season with the Mariners.

    Ohhhh! So now we are going to complain about the win-win trade that we made with the Mariners getting some much needed power in the system in O’Neill. The same power that Ozuna is currently not providing? Over a pitcher that would not have gotten a chance here. Seriously, are you pulling Weaver or Flaherty for Marco? Knowing Reyes was coming back soon?

    Getting back to Adams, Mo knew Adams had finally gotten himself in the best playing shape of his career. Mo inexplicably kept Adams for the yrs he was out of shape, enduring weak production.

    Mind-boggling logic here. Adams has been saying he’s in the best shape every single spring training.

    #59878
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    PadsFS
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    EuroWolf

    Cardinals FO has been horrible in recent years. You can’t fully discuss any negatives about Matheny without putting it into context vis-a-vis to the FO failings. The list is long.

    I see some of our best deals (Mikolas, Lackey, Norris, etc) peppered in there too. How does that jive with your long list?

    #59880
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    bccran
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    Like many GMs, Mo has made some moves that don’t work out – and some that do.

    The bottom line is that the Cards probably would have made the playoffs in 2016 if Holliday hadn’t gotten hurt. Still were in it until the last day of the season. And that they would probably have made it to the playoffs in 2017 if not for the issues with both Oh and Rosenthal. Still were in it until the last week of the season. This season, we’ve had injuries to Reyes, Wacha, and half the bullpen, plus severe underproduction from players we’ve counted on in the lineup like Fowler, Wong, and recently Pham. And we’re still only 4 games out of the wildcard. I really don’t know why people are so swept up in negativism. Maybe because some of them weren’t Cardinal fans through the 50s, 70s, and 90s. Entitlement is rampant. I talked to my bother-in-law in Philly a few days ago and told him unhappy Cardinals fans are. He just laughed and asked me the following 3 questions –

    1.) How many losings seasons have you had in the last 12 years?
    2.) How many times have you been in the playoffs in the last 12 years?
    3.) How many times have you been in the World Series in the last 12 years?

    He has a point.

    #59885
    stlcard25
    stlcard25
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    Pads covered most everything for me so I won’t rehash it but that question writer makes so many assumptions and assigns so many false motives that it’s very hard to cut through the venom and get to a legit issue.

    I would say the front office has mostly done a good job creating a competitive team despite some bad moves in the last few years. Other than, really, Fowler…not one of the moves that were made are really all that bad. Sure, Holland has been bad but for one year, it’s not that massive of a bust.

    #59892
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    bccran
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    It seems like Mo has been better with trades than with free agents lately. The short term additions of
    Berkman and Beltran were great a number of years ago, but moving into the longer term deals with Peralta (last 2 years), Leake, Fowler, and Cecil haven’t worked out so well. The question is where they will go from here. One thing I would fault Mo for is the depth of due diligence he does before a trade or free agent signing. Examples are thinking Heyward would extend, the health of Walden, the health of Ozuna,
    the pre-trade productivity slide of Cecil, what Leake was really looking for, what Fowler was really looking for, etc.

    #59897
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    858booyah
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    I think we can all agree that there’s plenty of blame to go around the organization.

    #59899
    EuroWolf
    EuroWolf
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    I see some of our best deals (Mikolas, Lackey, Norris, etc) peppered in there too. How does that jive with your long list?

    LOL. Regressing year-by-year is how it jives.

    #59901
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    bccran
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    Sometimes teams regress for a little while, EW. Just the way it is.
    Ask the Yankees, Giants, etc. Can’t ride the top of the wave all the time.

    #59902
    EuroWolf
    EuroWolf
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    Sometimes teams regress for a little while, EW.

    True, but that doesn’t mean you can’t make a case the FO has been bad, on balance, in recent years.

    #59907
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    858booyah
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    Sure its hard to stay on top. Teams do improve from year to year and sometimes injuries and other factors play a part. Cardinals haven’t had a 3 consecutive years of not making the playoffs since 97-99. People are a little restless while our friends to the north are making it every year.

    If you look at the last 3 offseasons its clear that the negative acquisitions outweigh the positive. However we’ve still managed to field a competent but flawed club. Big name FA have mostly been busts and a couple of trades haven’t panned out. The lack of development of quality position players has lagged a bit. The rotation has been solid but unspectacular and the pen has been a crapshoot. I won’t get into the defense, fundamentals and how the team is ran in the dugout. You can’t have this many question marks and negative things happening and make the playoffs.

    Really it comes down the star power and consistency. We just don’t have enough high caliber talent and too many flawed players in some area’s. This player is good at defense and is fast but is streaky at the plate and make boneheaded mistakes on the bases. This guy has power but seems to swing at everything. This pitcher throws hard but doesn’t have a wide array of pitch selections. This player can hit but can’t field, This player had a good year previously but has regressed due to “insert excuse”. This guy was good 2 years ago but lets sign him and see if he can recapture the glory days.

    #59914
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    bccran
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    Just recently, a team won the WS with these OPS numbers up and down the lineup –

    .854
    .755
    .711
    .713
    .739
    .811
    .731
    .777

    The bench had the following OPS numbers –

    .707
    .559
    .581
    .538
    .650

    Where’s the “star” power?

    #59921
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    forsch31
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    The “star” power on that team was the starting pitching and the bullpen. There were 2 starting pitchers with an ERA below 3.00. The bullpen for the year had a 3.01 ERA. Their star starting pitcher threw 21 innings in the World Series and allowed only 1 run. That consisted of a start in game 1 throwing 7 innings of 1 run ball. Then he came back in game 4 and threw a 9 inning shutout. To follow that up, he threw 5 innings in relief in game 7 allowing no runs.

    It could also be argued that Buster Posey was the star power for the offense. Additionally, the team hit much better in the last 1/3 of the season than it had in the first 2/3s of the season.

    #59923
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    bccran
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    So the star power was pitching. That’s good news because the Cards have lots of that.

    #59927
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    forsch31
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    Yes, the Cardinals have pitching. Is any of it “star” pitching? There is only 1 starter with an ERA below 3.00. The bullpen has an ERA of 4.23. The bullpen for the Cardinals is throwing a higher percentage of total innings than the 2014 Giants bullpen.

    I could also argue that the 2014 Giants had an easier path to the playoffs and World Series. There were only 6 teams in the NL over .500. They tied for the first wild card at 88-74. The sixth team in the NL was 82-80.

    In 2018, there are 10 teams currently that are .500 or above. The Cardinals are tied for the 7th best record.

    #59929
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    forsch31
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    Mo knew when he signed Mike Leake to the foolish 5 yr/80 mil dollar contract with the no trade clause, that was BY FAR the largest amount any club had ever paid Leake

    I think this is one of the funniest things for someone to say. The Cardinals signed Leake in free agency. This came after his 6th full season in the majors. That was his first opportunity for free agency. Of course it would be his largest contract, there was no competition for his services prior to that point. He was under full team control.

    Name me 10 players who signed their largest contract prior to free agency.

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