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I don’t lament losing Piscotty, Grichuk, or Pham, and I’m not convinced O’Neill will be the answer either. RF has been and continues to be a black hole for us.
The only things Fowler has going for him is that he can bat LH and he is owed a lot of money, otherwise he would be out the door. If he is our starting RF next year we had better see a big upgrade at 3B.
Should Fowler get a mulligan for 2018, as this comparison suggests?
Stop with that sense-making. It doesn't go over well. Trust me. Ran into that wall this past Friday. Brace yourself.
— Derrick Goold (@dgoold) November 28, 2018
With Seager considered by some to be a 3B alternative to Donaldson, the Fowler trade talk began on the Donaldson thread. I posted this over there, but it really fits better here.
#STLCards fans thoughts? From @Feinsand: pic.twitter.com/iuw7tZnzkf
— Ethan Carter (@EthanCarterSW) November 28, 2018
Why would Fowler waive a full no trade clause to go to a club that is tearing down?
It’s fun to talk of trading him but it requires his blessing.
Schildt starts Fowler opening day just like he did when MM was canned. Bozo is a goner, Moose platoons w/Gyorko and I still watch 162 Cards games in 19′.
With similar no-trade protection, why did Leake agree to go there? These players aren’t exactly in the same place as a Stanton, for example.
Possibilities for Fowler:
Chance to start over fresh?
Get away from a club he maybe did not enjoy playing for?
Chance to play every day?Having said that, I doubt the Cards would trade Fowler at this point, either, but I do not consider the no-trade protection a show-stopper. Eating enough of the remaining salary to make a deal work is a far bigger obstacle, IMO.
Fowler is a negative influence and poor example for the younger players. The Cards need to find a way to trade him, even if they have to give up several mid level prospects in the deal.
I believe that there are different “forces” stretching this team in different directions. I also believe that Shildt is not wise enough nor strong enough to not only figure out what is actually going on with this club, nor will he be able to make it right if he does.
Matheny has other thoughts about the inner-workings of the present team, in retrospect. I’d like to know his true feelings…. but we will never hear them.
“Fowler is a negative influence and poor example for the younger players. The Cards need to find a way to trade him, even if they have to give up several mid level prospects in the deal.”
I would partly concur, cranny. Certainly Fowler’s unprofessional whining about being benched last year sets a poor example. But the front office caving to him in a sense, while firing Matheny, might be a worse signal to the team in general. (Psst, Mabry was the problem, folks, not the manager. Well, Mabry plus the rotten free agents of the past two years. Even Miles Mikolas, Bud Norris, and Final Boss couldn’t counterbalance the horror of Fowler, Holland, Gregerson, and Cecil. That toxic quartet is very likely going to wind up collectively giving the team negative WAR at a total cost of about $140,000,000.)
But Fowler, who was ridiculed repeatedly in the Post-Dispatch and elsewhere for being the “last to arrive, first to leave” the ballpark, was the last to arrive for a reason. He was last because he was taking extra time every single day working on his own with a personal trainer before coming to the ballpark. Ironic ain’t it, that it was his dedication that created the illusion that he didn’t work hard enough?
No need to trade him, no need to give any prospects away. Just do what the Red Sox did with Fat Panda. Dump him and don’t look back. Put Tyler O’Neill in right field, take your 35-40 homers, and smile, smile, smile.
RR –
Matheny had always been a selfless person who put the team first when he was playing. He expected the same from his players as a manager. When a few of them put themselves above the success of the team he became at odds with them.
If they didn’t provide what he thought was a good example for the younger players he also became at odds with them. DF was the biggest example and biggest problem. It caused a lot of dissension. Something had to give. Unfortunately it was MM. “Me first” players will take down any team trying to reach a goal as a group.bc… great analysis (without naming names). Shildt caved to the FO by starting Fowler. This is disturbing.
One reason the old westerns were so easy to follow was because the good guys always wore white hats and the bad guys black. If only real life was so clear.
Nobody is “always” anything good or bad. How do you know MM was always a selfless person? Your obsession with Matheny is disturbing.
Matheny’s mantra was ‘Rest, rest, rest’ rather than ‘Practice, practice, practice’. He had several players who were underperforming. I didn’t know that Fowler and Matheny hated each other. My hopes for Fowler playing better are rising.
NJ –
I don’t know why it’s disturbing. MM helped the Cardinals players and coaching staff through the Kile tragedy, he selflessly mentored Molina which he knew would cost him his job even though he was a Gold Glove caliber catcher, and those close to him consider him one of the finest men they have ever met.
Why wouldn’t I be complimentary about him. Just facts – shouldn’t be disturbing at all. Did he get frustrated with players who were addicted to video games and porn, which sometimes caused them to take their eye off their job? Sure. Hold that against him if you wish.Because you make blanket statements about him using words like “always”. I don’t hold anything against him. But nobody is perfect and Matheny is not the exception. He made plenty mistakes like all us of do and he wasn’t always right and the players he had problem always wrong. He lost his job for a reason and a lot had to do with him thinking he was always right and it was his way or the highway.
That’s fine, NJ. We can agree to disagree. No one is perfect, you’re right. I just tend to try to give people the benefit of the doubt and look on their good side.
The majority of MM bashers tend to concentrate on all the things they didn’t and don’t like about him.
I’ve met him and know people close to him and tend to pass along my impressions and what I hear from others who know him very well.
Just different viewpoints and ways of looking at things, that’s all.I was thinking that Matheny lost his job because of the undermining by players who think they have leverage and players who just didn’t give a damn. Of course the FO caved, siding with the malcontents. And those losers continue to demoralize this team.
And don’t kid yourself about Shildt… he ain’t that good. You must notice that his name is rarely mentioned in Cardinal-land.
I will not comment of the same positions that have been made many times over.
However, on this final, new point, I find it ridiculous that anyone would assess the value of a manager by a perception of how often he is mentioned or not mentioned during the off-season. It just reminds me that when swinging a hammer, some do not even need a nail.
wow Bccran making some big statements there again to make it look like the players were the bad guys and MM was an angel, nothing new from you though it is almost like you are related to him.
Onyx – Most comments about MM have been critical. Just because I try to say some nice things about him it doesn’t mean I’m related to him. Let me give you a specific example of what kind of person he is. He was the guest speaker last year at St. Louis Fellowship of Christian Athletes Gala fund raising dinner. Around 380 attendees. His standard speaking fee through his agency is $15,000. At the end of of the dinner, there’s an oral auction and the last part of that
is the auctioneer asking for cash donations, starting at $10,000 and working down eventually to the $100 level. Matheny requested that they start at $15,000 instead of $10,000. The auctioneer said okay, and asked if anyone woukd like to donate $15,000. Matheny raised his hand and said “I would”.Back to DF. He was the leader on the team in trying to get MM fired. At the same time his production and effort were atrocious.
So, this thread has been derailed by talk of Mathney and Schildt.
Let’s get back to the real crux of the problem – Fowler!
How do we get rid of him, if the front office won’t simply release him, and won’t make any upgrades to the outfield until he is gone?
Good advice to all of us, C2016. Let’s get this thread back to Fowler. Having said that, I wish I had a magic answer to the Fowler problem, but I do not.
Funny how I just saw this. I suggest those whose opinions are so hardened take a few minutes and listen to Bader. He is extremely positive about the support he has received from Fowler, including mentioning he stayed with Bader talking until 2 am when Bader was cut from the team.
Like I said before, there are many angles to any situation. To Bader, Fowler wears a white hat, and he is in the clubhouse every day. We are not.
#STLCards Harrison Bader credits part of his success last season to the man he stepped in for: Dexter Fowler. pic.twitter.com/wQYigyCEbx
— MLB Network Radio on SiriusXM (@MLBNetworkRadio) November 30, 2018
BW, I didn’t mean for my comment to come off as saying that Shildt’s abilities are judged by HOW much is written about him…. that would be ridiculous. I just wanted to comment on how little attention he gets.
This is about Fowler. Why did Mo fly out to Vegas to have dinner with DF and his wife to ask DF to move to RF? Doesn’t anyone find that a bit bizarre? It signaled a lot of things. None good.
You get rid of Fowler by including several decent prospects in a trade. I truly don’t think he’s comfortable here anyway. He’ll never be able able to live the excitement again that he experienced in Chicago because of the size of the market and their long drouth.
That was unique.
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