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The signals were questionable in the direction of many of the people involved, not just the player. But why dredge up year-old info that has been discussed over and over and over again? To try to counterbalance the positive quotes from Bader that are new?
Quotes from one player don’t override things I’ve heard from a number of others in the organization as well as his pitiful unenthusiastic performance. Sorry.
I hear many things, too, but I am discreet about repeating them. None of this is as black and white as you represent it and I want to ensure that anyone reading this board who still has a open mind understands that.
I think in 2019 at some time, Fowler and Cecils tenure will be up. I see a 30% chance or so that Fowler plays markedly better than 2018, which wouldn’t take much. If he does this, they will keep him as the 3rd/4th outfielder. Or he continues the downward spiral (He is a career .262 hitter, not impressive) , and they are forced to cut him midseason. I would surely like to see him gone this winter, but reality says no one else would want him unless we pay virtually all of the remaining salary.
The options to get rid of Fowler are:
1. Attach a young promising player to him to make the deal more appealing, similar to what Seattle did with Cano.
2. Pay down a huge majority of the salary in a trade.
3. Trade for another bad contract.
4. Release him.
None of these options are good which is why the most likely scenario is he will open the season starting in RF for the Cardinals as they try to rebuild his value.
There are multiple sides to every story. That’s why people input what they know – to try to contribute.
I believe Fowler’s off-season and mindset were derailed by the intense anger our country was going through. I feel his family situation forced him to confront and take a role in political issues. A person cannot maintain the degree of focus his profession requires when one’s brain is constantly producing massive amounts of cortisol. I am not taking a political side here, but I believe his work was negatively affected by his personal life.
First thing, let’s see Why Dexter can’t hit.
Baseball-Reference has divided the batting records of all hitters into three categories of opposing pitcher: power, average, and finesse. Until he hit his early 30’s, Dexter Fowler did okay against all three types of pitcher. In fact, he was almost exactly the same against each category, with an OPS in the .760’s or .770’s versus each type.
Then at age 31 in 2017 he struggled against the power pitchers, posting a .635 OPS.
And at 32 in 2018 he collapsed completely v. power arms, with just a lowly .443 OPS.
So what should we expect from him at age 33? It seems to me that the Cardinal front office must at least consider the possibility that Fowler is now un-usable at the MLB level, period. He’s not a defensive sub, and he gripes when he doesn’t start, so he can’t be your 4th outfielder. His so-called batting “improvements” after the firing of Matheny/Mabry included an OPS still well under .700, and that is unplayable at even 5th outfielder, since Fowler is already a defensive liability and getting slower every day.
It’s great that Fowler was a good teammate toward Bader, full marks for that. But as of several weeks ago Dexter quite publicly continued to blame Matheny and not himself for his inability to hit his weight in 2018. In the well-worn modern parlance, Fowler has never “owned” his awful 2018 season. And to me, that is unprofessional. So because of the on-and-off field stuff, they can’t release him fast enough for my tastes.
And it costs nothing to replace him! No need to spend a third of a billion dollars on Bryce Harper; just put Tyler O’Neill in right field. Problem solved. Jose Martinez, Jose Adoilis Garcia, maybe Yairo Munoz or even Lane Thomas. Some combination of those guys can likely cover the responsibilities of the 4th & 5th outfielder.
Of course there is a need to spend in a free agent. I want Harper because this team needs a marquee player. They have money pay the man and go from there. There is much more at stake here than just who plays outfield. The fans need to see team make a huge investment for a coveted free agent. I am so tired of the same approach since Pujols left. Insanity is keep doing the same things expecting different results. As far as Fowler goes trade him for an equally bad contract in another area where we could use more than RF. Get Seager as some have suggested.
I would agree, that all things remaining constant, replacing Fowler could provide a healthy bump in the teams win total year-over-year. The key is identifying a player, or a combination of players, that can provide offensive production at or above league average levels for an entire season. The key is how to do that.
It appears that the club has a plethora of young talent in the outfield capable of producing at these levels or better. So, should the club make another significant investment in an outfielder? Or, are they better off investing to upgrade the infield or pitching staff.
I agree that moving Fowler will be expensive. He has a large contract and would appear to be on a downward performance trend.
I am not convinced signing another outfielder is the answer at this point.
RR, fowlers hard contact % was actually up last season and his k% in 18′ was sitting right on his career avg.
Doesn’t sound like a guy getting dominated.
You showed ops from your research to show “results”. I want to mention a .120 pt career BA drop, on balls in play in 18′, that I believe led to those ops results.
I doubt fowler could repeat his 2018, even if he tried.
Watching DF in person showcases his lackadaisical attitude in the field. What a breath of fresh air Bader is as far as effort.
Once again I see that Seager’s name has been brought up to trade for. I still have not seen anyone who has explained how trading Fowler for Seager is any better than just releasing Fowler. The way I see it there are several points to be addressed:
1. Is Seager any better than Gyorko?
2. Would Seattle trade Seager even up for Fowler? If not, how much more would need to included by the Cardinals?I am not in the Pro-Seager camp (but I am in the Get Rid of Dexter Fowler Camp), so I will take a stab at your questions, forsch31.
1. Other than last year and 2011 (his rookie year), he’s been as good, if not better than Gyorko.
2. Seager is only making roughly $6 million more than Fowler (over the next three years), so from a financial perspective, there is no reason for the Cardinals to include more. Now, if you are talking from a prospect perspective, they need a DH, and if Jose Martinez is what it takes to get Fowler off the team, so be it. We can use the extra roster space to sign a LH reliever.One other point, if we did acquire Seager, maybe we trade Gyorko for a reliever we can use…
C2016, unless I am missing something, it looks like Gyorko has been better than Seager each of the last 2 years and Seager’s trend is going way down.
Could we release Fowler, trade Martinez for a reliever and sign a LH reliever to take Fowler’s 40-man spot? Wouldn’t that achieve the same results without taking on the risk that Seager continues his poor perfomance?
Is Seager trending down? From his career year, yes. But his 2017 offensive season was roughly in line with career numbers from an OPS perspective. Defensively, well you know how much I believe in defensive metrics as they are currently formulated, but the only year that was really out of line was his career year, to the positive.
Yes, Gyorko outperformed him in 2017 as well.
Yes, releasing Fowler straight up is what many of us WANT the Cardinals to do, but evidently DeWitt has given the order to ride out Fowler’s contract or trade him for something that is not a bag of balls…
Oh, the other reason for Seager is that he bats left handed, and the Cardinals have stated they are looking for a left-handed bat.
Now that Jay Bruce is on the Mariners, that gives them two left-handed hitting bad contracts for which the Cardinals can deal Fowler.
The Cardinals better figure out how to send smoke signals to DiPoto.
Does anyone know what’s happened to Gyorko’s power?
2016 – 438 PAs / 30 HRs
2017 – 481 PAs / 20 HRs
2018 – 402 PAs / 11 HRsJuly 30, 2017 at 12:15 pm #29093REPLY
Cardinals2016
Participant
Fowler can, and should, be going elsewhere. It’s just that the Cardinals will have to eat about $6-8 million per year to make that happen. But, would you rather make the playoffs and eat a portion of Fowler’s contract, or miss the playoffs and put up with him for four more years? MAKE THE TRADE.Notice the date and author.
I went back as far as I could in the “topic” section… about a year and a half. But I remember several participants here being against THE signing from day one. It was a super bad move then and a worse one now, a hundred times over. What we have is an albatross like no other in MLB.
A big “thank you” to the guys upstairs who are pretending that the Cardinals are a play-off team and promoting them as so. It seems obvious that the team could be better if their best players were actually playing.
Kyle Seager is a decent player but he is owed more money than most people realize. He has a clause in his contract stating that his 2022 option becomes a player option if he is traded, and you have to assume he would exorcise it. That means he is owed $72M for FOUR years. A worse contract than Fowler. Do we want Seager for four years? I don’t think so.
Now, what about Jay Bruce? He is owed $28M over two years. Would the Mariners trade Bruce straight up for Fowler? No, they wouldn’t but if we kick in some money and/or another mid level player or two we might have the makings of a deal. I could live with Bruce/O’Neill in RF as long as we could still get Goldschmidt.
If the trade-happy Mariners have their way, third baseman Kyle Seager will be the next veteran to depart. The club’s willing to do “whatever it takes” to deal Seager, Buster Olney of ESPN writes (subscription required). Long one of the majors’ most underrated players, the 31-year-old Seager is coming off an uncharacteristically rough season and still has a guaranteed $57MM left on his contract. Seager’s presence is no longer needed in Seattle, which is rebuilding and trying to cut payroll, though it could be difficult to deal him on the heels of such a disappointing campaign. With that in mind, Olney suggests the Mariners could either swap Seager for another team’s unwanted contract or package him with one of their best remaining assets (Mitch Haniger or Jean Segura) to get his money off the books.
Well pick your poison! Bruce or Seager if no Harper or Machado.
Imagine if we trade Fowler and some $$$ for Bruce and then get Moose. Bruuuuce and Moooose!!! hahaha!
This is the type of move we would do. I am dreaming on Harper and Machado aren’t I?
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