Woodford

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  • #189135
    gscottar
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    Ollie the tyrant has single handedly freed Jake.

    #189136
    blingboy
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    Both times Jake has been called back up it was for just one appearance. The first time he was OKish and the second time he stunk. So lets hope he makes the best of it.

    #189139
    bicyclemike
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    Hicks was obviously the guy the. Cardinal brass wanted in that last rotation spot, and that is understandable as he has a live arm. The issues though, are that his command is suspect and he has not shown to be durable.

    So they give him a shot and he breaks down fairly quick. Fine, not something that should be unexpected. But why you don’t then have Woody, a guy who has shown some promise, as your plan B is baffling. Throwing guys out there like Packy Naughton ahead of Woodford is craziness.

    But now he is back, so time for us to shut up and see how this goes (assuming the Cardinals actually pitch Woody with the attrition that is going on with other guys).

    #189183
    blingboy
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    Hummel in the P-D says Cabrera is not injured and implies its probably Covid. Not sure what that means for Woody. I guess until one of the injured pitchers comes back.

    #189366
    Lee
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    Woody, nice job again in the 10th, getting the dbl play ball. Velo at 94… its not as hard as some of the guys, but his delivery hides the ball well so it sneaks up on hitters. Lets hope he gets some opportunities now and continues to do well for the club.

    #189376
    gscottar
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    As I have said before I think Woodford should definitely be higher in the pecking order than Mo’s veteran rejects but frankly I am surprised this debate has lasted for 5 pages. Woodford is ok but he isn’t exactly the second coming of Nolan Ryan and Jacob Degrom. He is a swingman/long reliever or maybe number 5 starter and nothing more. Whether Mo and Marmol have him on the roster probably isn’t going to be the determining factor if we win a world series or not.

    #189377
    CardsFan552
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    gscottar. So your saying middle relief is not important..? interesting? I think 99% of the fans and management would disagree with you on that one. Middle relief not only keeps you in games, but it can save a bullpen as well. The fact it, OM has mismanaged his pen pieces. If they have the pitchers in the pen, that should be I think the numbers get much better. Also, saying a swingman/#5 starter in not a determining factor in winning a world series is very ignorant. Making the playoffs is just as important as winning in the playoffs and you don’t get there without a solid pen/rotation. Of course you want to win a world series, thats the ultimate goal, but you have to get there first.
    And No, Woodford isn’t the second coming of Nolan Ryan or Degrom, that is just a silly comparison…but he is a solid piece of the puzzle or what you call a “Team”.!

    #189378
    Lee
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    Cardsfan333. Totally agree with you on your points. It takes a team to win a world series. gscottar may not think having a good mid relief or #5 starter makes any difference, by they are dead wrong. And to go on and compare Woodford to Ryan and DeGrom, really…?
    The real reason for this forum is not comparing Woodford to some of the best pitchers in history, but to discuss why he hasn’t been given more opportunities, this year as he has clearly been a better pitcher than several in the pen. And if this debate/forum about Woodford goes on, so be it; there is not time table for a forum to last. If you don’t want to join in, don’t.!

    #189379
    stlcard25
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    I’m not convinced that Woodford will even be successful as a reliever. Again, this is a guy with way below average numbers at every stop that’s not an extreme pitching park (and a solid turn at Memphis, to be fair). He’s been solid so far, and better than expected. I’ll continue to posit that the angst that is being shown is way out of line with his actual ability. The reactions to his “treatment” are indicative of a #3 starter being stifled rather than the 5/6 (at best) that he is.

    #189380
    Lee
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    Everyone has an opinion, and I respectfully disagree with yours. Woodford has shown nothing but promise amid awful conditions from management. Get him in a role that is defined and he can become accustomed to will make a difference for sure. Bouncing someone around like he has been this year is not easy for anyone. The reactions to his treatment are that of a professional baseball player… certainly is doesn’t matter if he is a #3 or a #5 starter. Remember, treat others as you would treat yourself.

    #189381
    Euro Dandy
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    Somebody needs to come up with a scale so posters will know how much angst to show for the mismanagement of any player based on rank order of the player’s value in the roster, from 1 to 26. That way we can all be good fans. Plus, it’s relevant because you never know if Mo’s next mismanagement will be near the top of the roster or closer to the bottom. Last night’s loss is evidence of this on at least a couple of levels.

    #189382
    stlcard25
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    I truly hope that Woodford gets his shot to start for a lengthy amount of time and that he proves the naysayers such as myself wrong. That said, his career minors track record doesn’t speak as well to his ability. I (and all the tracking systems, who have him between a 4.64 and 5.08 ERA) would be pretty surprised if he was a good starting pitcher for this team.

    #189388
    gscottar
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    I have nothing against Woodford or middle relievers in general. This team obviously needs some. As I stated earlier I would rather Woodford be given a shot over VerHagen, McFarland, Brooks, Naughton, or Wittgren, however, the apocalyptic levels of worry and concern over him has surprised me.

    #189390
    1982 willie
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    Mismanagement of a player has nothing to do with him being a number one, three, or five place starter. Now if Woodford had sucked and was bad, nobody would be saying anything and this thread would be short. But that’s not the case. Far as what he is number wise on this pitching staff, hard to say. Traditionally he slots as a possible 5th starter great middle relief but on this particular staff he probably slots higher. I mean matz and Hudson to me aren’t really number three starters, maybe 4 but that’s a maybe. I think Woodford can be just as effective as they are lots of times. We have flaherty, injured now but he wasn’t pitching well at all, even waino hasn’t pitched like a high end starter. Only mikolas really far as our main starting core. Have to wait and see on pallante. That’s my take, don’t care about what any numbers say, my eyes tell me more. The only thing is we really haven’t seen much of Woodford because of his mismanagement. Mentally he has to be struggling. It’s why I said he should be traded or released. A new surrounding with management that cares more for it’s players might be a better fit for him.

    #189397
    jj-cf-stl
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    Next time try to avoid using “ignorant” 333, plz.

    #189407
    Bob Reed
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    I feel like maybe there might be some mischaracterization of Jake Woodford’s minor league track record. His ERA’s were sometimes very good, sometimes just okay. But always he was young. Young in general and more importantly young for his league. And that matters — sometimes quite a bit.

    In 2019 in the Triple-A Pacific Coast League, Woodford posted a seemingly uninteresting 4.15 ERA. But the things is, that was 4th in the league. And he was only 22. And the three above him were 27-32 years old. And the league leader posted a not-much-better 3.82 ERA. Then as now, it was a hitter’s league.

    There were 26 pitchers in the PCL that year who threw 100+ innings, and Jake was the youngest of them all. (And it was no small sample; he was also 2nd in the league in innings pitched, just 1.2 IP behind the leader.)

    So at 22 he put up a very good Triple-A season.
    At 23 he struggled in his limited MLB debut, with a 5.57 ERA across just 21 innings.
    Then last year at 24 he had a solid 3.99 ERA in 68 innings, and was excellent in 5 September starts.
    And thus far this year it’s a 3.20 ERA in 20 major league innings.

    I just don’t see any rational reason at all that anyone would think he is not already a boringly solid major league pitcher — either in long relief or starting at the back of a rotation. He does not throw real hard. He is not exciting. He’s just an effective major league pitcher. And I dare say any manager who needs more than that doesn’t understand baseball.

    #189411
    kscardfan
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    Old school stats Bob Reed. New school stats apparently say he is bad. Thus the disagreement in this discussion. I like to see results. His have been better than all the middle relievers we have.

    #189442
    Bob Reed
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    “Old school stats, Bob Reed. New school stats apparently say he is bad.”

    Maybe so, Kansas. Maybe so. But that schism describes Andre Pallante faaar more than Woodford. Specifically, Pallante’s FIP is more than double his ERA this year. At any rate, Jake’s FIP has been just fine since the latter part of last year because of the home run drought he’s allowed. (One longball since last Labor Day.) Anyway, an update!

    These numbers include tonight’s tilt. Redbird ERAs and innings pitched since Sept. 1, 2021. Pitchers listed alphabetically and without comment.

    Cabrera: 2.01 ERA in 44.2 IP
    Gallegos: 3.16 ERA in 42.2 IP
    Hudson: 3.55 ERA in 83.2 IP
    Mikolas: 3.14 ERA in 126 IP
    Wainwright: 3.17 ERA in 127.2 IP
    Woodford: 2.74 ERA in 49.1 IP

    ——————————————————

    But wait! There’s more! Cardinal relievers ranked by average leverage when entering the game (#’s courtesy of Fangraphs). Ranking is among the 317 MLB relievers with 10+ innings in 2022.

    31. Gallegos
    36. Helsley
    56. Pallante
    70. Cabrera
    97. VerHagen
    150. Oviedo
    233. Wittgren
    260. Thompson
    290. Whitley
    294. McFarland
    299. Dead Skunk
    300. Woodford

    Since he’s been given zero responsibility/opportunity this year, it’s actually pretty surprising that Jake has posted an excellent ERA just over 3.00. Because for his career, he’s pitched best in the higher leverage situations. These career MLB splits are from Baseball-Reference:

    High Leverage .355 slugging allowed
    Medium Leverage .414
    Low Leverage .432

    #189443
    jj-cf-stl
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    Lol, dead skunk

    #189444
    Lee
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    ok jj. pick one then.
    synonyms
    uneducated · unknowledgeable · untaught · unschooled · untutored · untrained · illiterate · unlettered · unlearned · unread · uninformed · unenlightened · unscholarly · unqualified ·

    #189445
    Lee
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    I think Bob Reed is the smartest person on the forum! Great posts sir.

    #189446
    stlcard25
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    Because for his career, he’s pitched best in the higher leverage situations. These career MLB splits are from Baseball-Reference:

    High Leverage .355 slugging allowed
    Medium Leverage .414
    Low Leverage .432

    Small sample sizes and all…this is a little misleading. His slugging allowed is indeeded better, but he’s allowed a higher batting average in high leverage situations than any other, and the OBPs are virtually the same.

    #189447
    bccran
    Participant

    In 2019 Jake Woodford was selected as the starting pitcher for the PCL All Stars against the International League All Stars. He pitched 2 innings and gave up no hits and no runs. Struck out 2 and walked none. The fact that he was given that honor says he may be a little better pitcher in the eyes of professional baseball men than fans seem to give him credit for.

    #189459
    gscottar
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    cardfan333 wrote:

    gscottar. So your saying middle relief is not important..? interesting?

    I don’t recall ever saying that. I have actually been beating the drum for weeks that our bullpen was a shambles outside of the “big three”. Marmol needs more options and Mo didn’t give him squat over the winter. I think homegrown guys like Woodford, Oviedo, Fernandez, and Thompson should get opportunities before Mo’s veteran rejects. I am not as confident as some that these homegrown guys will be drastically better but yes they should get a shot. Where I differ most from others here is who makes the decisions. There seems to be a sentiment that Marmol is making these decisions by himself and I strongly disagree with that opinion.

    cardsfan33 wrote:

    Also, saying a swingman/#5 starter in not a determining factor in winning a world series is very ignorant.

    Lee wrote:

    ok jj. pick one then.
    synonyms
    uneducated · unknowledgeable · untaught · unschooled · untutored · untrained · illiterate · unlettered · unlearned · unread · uninformed · unenlightened · unscholarly · unqualified ·

    If you guys want to debate topics and challenge my opinions that is certainly fair. That is what a forum is for, but I try not to make it personal. I am 54 years old and have been watching and following the Cardinals closely for about 45 of those years so I do know a little bit about the game. Yes, all 26 roster spots have value but some do have more than others, otherwise, each player would be paid the same amount.

    #189504
    1982 willie
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    Regardless of what a player is being paid, they all deserve the same respect.

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