Woodford

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  • #189562
    CardsFan333
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    Here is another little tid bit I saw the other day for all you nay sayers out there.
    When requiring a min. of 8 inngs. pitcher this season, Woodford has the following top 10 ranks.
    1) ERA #6
    2) WHIP #8
    3) BB #6
    4) Avg.against #9

    Although, these are not eye popping, they certainly are deserving of a firm spot in the pen at min.

    #189826
    blingboy
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    I missed this at the time, from Goold’s Q&A on stltoday on June 28. In response to a question about Woodford’s usage.

    “Why he doesn’t have a more prominent spot for a bullpen in need, I think, is a fair question to continue to pursue, and when a slider doesn’t have the shape that they want but that sinker does get outs, then maybe the outs should be the focus. Oliver Marmol offers detailed, metric-driven answers on the usage, and he’s the one making the call, of course.”

    https://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/birdland/goold-cardinals-trade-pursuits-restricted-by-their-data-driven-aversion-to-risk/article_6f641ff8-6e7e-5ea6-ab54-95e08355d113.html#tracking-source=mp-in-article

    If Marmol has indeed offered “detailed, metric-driven answers on the usage”, I am not aware of it, and would be happy if those answers could be compiled and posted.

    #189833
    Bob Reed
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    I think we all know where Marmol can stick his “metric-driven” rationalizations.

    It’s the mediocre-velocity but highly effective Woodford sent down to AAA again, this time to make room for that hard-throwing but useless Jordan Hicks, coming off one of the worst minor league rehabs since the days of Mark Mulder. An ERA of 12.60 overall, and five runs allowed in his final inning at AAA. Sigh.

    “Maybe outs should be the focus.” Yeah, maybe. Maybe all the time, for every pitcher, every day. I know it’s not necessary to say this to an educated crowd of fans like we have here, so this is for our Boy Wonder in the manager’s chair:

    A major league pitcher who gets people out is extremely valuable regardless of how he does it. Conversely, a pitcher who fails to get people out has no value, regardless of whether he throws 200 MPH or has pretty secondary pitches.

    Marmol is behaving like a buffoon re Jake Woodford and he has been for months. The Post-Dispatch writers should stop giving him a pass on the matter.

    #189839
    1982 willie
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    So true there Bob so true

    #189842
    kscardfan
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    I think he and marmol have a personal issue between them. It needs resolved if so. At least he can’t use Wittgren now.

    #189864
    Bob Reed
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    “I think he and Marmol have a personal issue between them. It needs resolved if so.”

    Either way, it reflects very poorly on Marmol as a manager, and as a person. Either (1)his non-baseball vendetta towards Woodford is significantly undermining his team’s chance for success; or (2)Marmol really is as knuckleheaded as Derrick Goold and his fellow P-D scribes seem to honestly believe he is, and this “insufficient slider” nonsense should be taken at face value.

    I understand why a handful of folks here don’t think this is that big of a deal. And many seasons it wouldn’t be a big deal. If the Redbird rotation were generally healthy & effective it wouldn’t matter much at all. Or if the bullpen had plenty of guys who get people out, it wouldn’t matter much at all. Or if the Cards were a 95-win team with no worries about making the playoffs, then it wouldn’t matter so much either.

    But this particular year, with Marmol using 11 different starters and receiving so many truncated 3 and 4 inning starts because of it (like today!), and outright refusing to utilize a durable guy with a sub-3.00 major league ERA over his last 50 innings…well, it has already cost the team 2, maybe 3 games in the standings by my estimate.

    This was the worst possible season to have a kid manager mis-managing his pitching staff this severely.
    Some seasons it wouldn’t matter very much. This year it’s been deadly.

    #189904
    bccran
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    Some really questionable stuff. Pujols playing against right handed pitching. The shunning of Woodford. Etc.

    #189906
    CardsFanInChiTown
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    Does Mo text Oli the lineup he wants? Sadly that’s not a joke question, he’s just a highly paid puppeteer.

    #189908
    Bob Reed
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    “Some really questionable stuff. Pujols playing against right-handed pitching. The shunning of Woodford. Etc.”

    Indeed, cranny.
    And Albert Pujols didn’t just play too many games versus righties. He hit cleanup in some of those games.

    Juan Yepez has twice as many starts in the outfield as at DH. That should be criminalized.

    Bader hit ninth in the order against lefties on multiple occasions, including on the road.

    The top of the order was Carlson to start the year. And Goldy batted second for weeks.

    And then there’s all of the starts given to pitchers who at this point in their careers have no business starting an MLB game. Those numerous (and entirely foreseeable) abbreviated and ineffective starts put undo pressure on the rest of the staff — pressure on the bullpen to soak up far too many innings, and pressure on established starting pitchers to throw more innings themselves. And yes, 80-90% of this pitching staff debacle was avoidable if Marmol hadn’t been preoccupied with sticking pins in a Jake Woodford voodoo doll.

    Marmol simply ignores everything that happened prior to 2022. Thus, Marmol doesn’t know which hitters and pitchers are good or bad at which skills. Marmol has no understanding that some players are more comfortable and/or more successful in certain roles. I fully expect Johan Oviedo and Packy Naughton — no matter how well they pitch coming out of the bullpen — to be given more starting assignments. They are NOT major league starting pitchers. But before the year is over, Ollie Marmol will give one or both of them some additional starts that any rational, competent manager would have simply given to Woodford.

    Just you wait and see.

    #189913
    blingboy
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    Analytics is a tool which can be used to further the effort to reach a goal. Like a hammer is a tool to help build a house. But the hammer can drive nails or mash thumbs, depending upon the ability of the user. What I think we are seeing now is a lot of thumb mashing.

    #189930
    bicyclemike
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    Well said to all, and a great analysis bling. Preaching to the choir here, but this club has blown two early 5-0 leads in a week. Jake’s loan contribution in those two games, if memory serves me correct, was getting a double play ground out in the first of the two ball games.

    And we now the the “phenom” Hicks back on the roster. Let’s hope he left his gas can in Memphis, but his track record is one of inconsistency. Not to mention he is so fragile you cannot use him much.

    We are still a very good ball club. But you wonder how much better we could be if common sense was used now and then rather than micromanaging.

    #189943
    bccran
    Participant

    Micro managing is probably caused by analytics. Not following what the analytics suggest and going with what your common sense tells you is probably what got MM and MS fired. So we can probably expect more of this analytics driven stuff that doesn’t make a great deal of common sense from OM. If he wants to keep his job.

    #189954
    gscottar
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    If it can be proven that Marmol is making the decisions regarding Woodford completely on his own I would to see it.

    #189961
    bccran
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    Do you think Woodford mouthed off to Mo?

    #189964
    gscottar
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    I have no idea and neither does anyone else. Regardless, it is the front office who decides who is in St. Louis and who is in Memphis.

    #189966
    bccran
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    That’s very true. But is Mo also dictating that Albert should be in the lineup against RH pitchers? With Yepez playing LF?

    #189968
    gscottar
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    Probably not and I don’t agree with Marmol for doing that. However, it was Mo who signed Albert when almost everyone knew it was just for marketing purposes. Marmol should’t have to deal with a shortened roster just to create a nostalgic buzz for the fans. LaRussa used to say one of the most difficult things a manager has to deal with is having an iconic player on the roster past his prime. It is a no win situation.

    #189970
    blingboy
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    I think its the computer says Woddy is no good. There’s no arguing with that if you want to keep your job.

    #189971
    bccran
    Participant

    It is, but there are other options to play against RHP. Last season, Pujols had a .939 OPS against LHP. So there was a reason to sign him to platoon at DH. But playing him against RHP makes no sense. Last season his line against RHP was
    .180/.233/.266/.500. That writing was on the wall.

    #189973
    Bob Reed
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    “I have no idea (who if anyone Woodford “mouthed off” to) and neither does anyone else. Regardless, it is the front office who decides who is in St. Louis and who is in Memphis.”

    Fair point, gscott. It absolutely is the GM who moves players up/down between the majors/minors.

    But my rage has been directed at Marmol because of his baffling usage of Woodford, making Jake the Castrated Garbagetime Guy. Ollie from the very beginning of the season refused to give Woodford any meaningful role whatsoever — and I am 99.9% confident that had nothing to do with anyone in the front office. If you’ll forgive me, I’ll just copy/paste the following from earlier in the week.

    Cardinal relievers ranked by average leverage when entering the game (#’s courtesy of Fangraphs). Ranking is among the 317 MLB relievers with 10+ innings in 2022.

    31. Gallegos
    36. Helsley
    56. Pallante
    70. Cabrera
    97. VerHagen
    150. Oviedo
    233. Wittgren
    260. Thompson
    290. Whitley
    294. McFarland
    299. Dead Skunk
    300. Woodford

    Ollie Marmol isn’t a complete blockhead; based on these pitchers’ histories and performances in 2022, every placement on there is logical or at least defensible — except for two. VerHagen and Woodford. VerHagen and Woodford should simply be switched. And that was already quite clearly known before the season started. VerHagen: bad MLB track record and bad Spring Training. Woodford: good major league record, excellent spring. But Woodford is being punished. For something.

    Marmol may be encouraged by the front office to not use relievers three days in a row, or for more than a specific number of pitches, that sort of thing. But I don’t think there’s any chance Marmol is being ordered to use certain pitchers in certain innings, or to use Pitcher X as mopup guy on Tuesday, then Pitcher Y as garbage guy on Friday, etc. This weird Woodford routine is all Ollie.

    #189977
    bccran
    Participant

    Good points, Bob.

    #189988
    gscottar
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    If the front office is unhappy with how a player is being utilized or underutilized there are ways they can deal with it and have in the past. I recall when Matheny absolutely refused to remove Allan Craig from the lineup even though it was obvious to everyone that Craig had lost it. Mo had to finally step in and trade Craig to Boston.

    If Mo is unhappy with how Marmol is using Woodford he is being quiet about it. There are tools at his disposal. He could refuse to send Jake to Memphis, he could trade Jake, or he could DFA his low hanging fruit relievers thereby forcing Woodford to get more high leverage usage. So far Mo has done none of those things, therefore, I am left to conclude that he is complicit or agreeable with how Woodford is being used.

    #189996
    PadsFS
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    Bader has been bad against LH pitching this year and was slightly better vs RH pitching last year too.

    #190028
    CardsFan333
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    To set the record straight, I know and speak with Woodford regularly. I have asked the question about any issues with MO or OM and he has none. There have not been any altercations between them: this is all made up speculation to try and find a reason he is not being utilized. As much as I would like him it St. Louis, I hope he goes to another team so he can play the game he loves.

    #190037
    blingboy
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    I have asked the question about any issues with MO or OM and he has none.

    The question is whether they have issues with him. It seems clear that one or both do, or at least ‘the organization’ has an issue with him. I doubt seriously it is anything personal like mouthing off. For whatever reason, probably analytics based as stated by Goold and supposedly stated by Marmol, Woody’s profile does not check the boxes that need to be checked to succeed within the model the FO has in place.

    To me, it is not unlike what can happen in any other corporate organization. Sometimes a capable and qualified person is not seen as the right fit for that organization. Its a deal breaker and any argument based upon the qualifications is not going to prevail

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