Woodford

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  • #187797
    bccran
    Participant

    Here are the ERAs of the Cardinals who have had bullpen appearances in 2022 –

    Rondon – 0.00 (only 5 innings)
    Helsley – 0.39 (23.1 innings)
    Pallante – 1.04 (34.2 innings – including 2 starts)
    Cabrera – 2.03 26.2 innings)
    Thompson – 2.25 (only 4 innings)
    Gallegos – 3.18 (22.2 innings)
    Woodford – 3.22 (19.0 innings – no starts)
    VerHagen 5.19 (17.1 innings)
    Oviedo – 5.19 (8.2 innings – including 1 start)
    Naughton 5.54 – (13.0 innings – including 2 starts)
    Wittgren – 5.79 23.1 innings)
    Whitley – 5.68 (12.2 innings)
    Brooks 7.71 (9.1 innings)
    McFarland – 7.83 9 23.0 innings)
    Walsh – 13.50 (only 2.2 innings)

    Can anyone explain why Woodford is in Memphis?

    #187799
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    I think that one could sense that the organization is not sold on Woodford as a rotation piece for the Cards. His three starts for Memphis were only mediocre. IMO, besides his slider he needs to work on his mound presence.

    #187802
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    If they aren’t sold on woodford, they there is a bunch of pitchers on this staff they shouldn’t be sold on. I don’t care about medicate starts in Memphis. He’s looked good up here. Is he great, no but he’s dependable and generally keeps us in games where as other guys can’t do that for even an inning. Like I said, this organization as ran by the ownership it has doesn’t deserve him. Trade him, release him, let him go someplace else and succeed which I know he would do

    #187803
    kscardfan
    Participant

    Free

    Can’t be explained. The numbers are there. Have to be blind not to see it and mo isn’t blind. Would like to know the real reason. Has he said or done something to put him in the doghouse? It’s like back when Carp or Dejong were in the lineup every day while not hitting a bit. 99-100 people would have been benched them. I’m guessing 80 out of a 100 would have Woodford ahead of Wittgren, Brooks,Naughton,McFarland, aand Walsh.
    Since this has gone on thru two Managers now it’s got to be mo. He needs to go. I agree with Willy. Let him go somewhere that he has a chance. Same with Sosa while they are at it.

    #187807
    bccran
    Participant

    With the Cardinals in 2021 he had an ERA of 3.99 in 67.2 innings (with 8 starts included in a total of 26 appearances). With the Cardinals this season he has a 3.22 ERA. At Memphis, he has a 3.86 ERA this season. Maybe he mouthed off to Mo or Ollie when he saw that he wasn’t being given the proper chance this season. In any event, he definitely has earned a right (compared to others) to be with the major league club as at least a long reliever.

    #187810
    Nigel T
    Participant

    Paid - Three Months

    I believe the club is simply managing the workloads of the young starters now so they will be viable in August and September. If they don’t manipulate the IL, then they have to rotate them through the MLB bullpen and then slowly stretch them back out in Memphis. I suspect one of Thompson, Liberatore, or Oviedo will go down Wednesday, and maybe all three with Woodford and another fresh arm like Walsh coming back.

    #187813
    sjeff70
    Participant

    Free

    I remember last year as a starter he fizzled at the end. He had no control of his secondary pitches and in one game he threw nothing but fastballs. I think he pitched one more game after that and couldn’t get through the first couple innings. Didn’t see him after that in 2021.

    This year I think he pitched a few innings in relief but I didn’t watch him pitch. Era isn’t entirely accurate for relievers since they get bailed out if they get in trouble. Stats don’t tell the whole story.

    #187824
    Bob Reed
    Participant

    Free

    “Can anyone explain why Woodford is in Memphis?”

    To answer your original question, cranny, just a week or two ago Ollie Marmol offered a sportswriter the bogus explanation that Woodford had to “improve his slider because his slider was better last year.” That’s it. That’s allegedly why one of the team’s better utility pitchers has been demoted below such dregs as you detailed in your post. It’s 100% nonsense, of course. All that matters at the MLB level is whether a pitcher gets people out.

    It’s irrelevant whether any single specific pitch is as good as the manager wants it to be, because every pitcher in history has a pitch they could theoretically improve upon. Major league pitchers who are already succeeding, have of course always been allowed to keep on succeeding while still trying to sharpen their repertoire. So either Marmol is lying about the “slider” rationale, or he’s the stupidest person on the face of the earth. Therefore, he’s lying. Therefore, Woodford must simply be in Marmol’s doghouse. (Perhaps because he was insubordinate when he won Flaherty’s vacated starter role fair & square in Spring Training, and it was handed to Jordan Hicks instead. But that’s only my personal guess.)

    This bizarre misallocation of talent (there is zero precedent to this weirdness in the half century I’ve followed the Cardinals) has been publicly excused and rationalized by many people in many different ways. But any way you slice it, a good MLB pitcher had his role within the team reduced, and then removed entirely, while some really, really bad pitchers have continued to remain with the team and make the Cardinals worse via the innings that Ollie Marmol gives them.

    Under Shildt, Jake Woodford was the classic swingman. He was used in long relief last year, then was available to smoothly transition to a starter’s role in September — where he conspicuously flourished with a 2.51 ERA over five starts, twice shutting down the hated rival Brewers. So I don’t know why anyone would blame Mozeliak rather than Marmol for the bass-akwards treatment of Woodford this season. Mo has been here all along, and neither Woodford nor any other Redbird pitcher has gotten such a shaft over the past few years — or the past five decades for that matter.

    #187826
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Bob, I am just speculating here but it is my opinion whether it be Matheny, Shildt, or Marmol the manager probably has been allowed to make suggestions or recommendations when it comes to roster spots and personnel decisions but Mo and the front office make the final decision. Perhaps Mo is indifferent towards Woodford, therefore, is going with Marmol’s recommendation but I can’t imagine Jake would be sitting in Memphis if Mo really wanted him in St. Louis.

    #187827
    bccran
    Participant

    Here’s how Woodford “fizzled out” in September last season.

    # of starts – 5 (out of 6 appearances)
    ERA – 2.51
    WHIP – 1.081
    IP – 28.2
    Hits given – 23

    In shortened Spring Training this year, Woodford pitched 6 innings and gave up 1 earned run. Hicks pitched 3 innings and gave up 2 earned runs.

    #187839
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Woodford has been a steady performer. Exactly the type you need as a fifth starter. If we were asking him to be a number one or two starter it might be different. But replacing someone like matz or Hicks, nah he will be just fine.

    #187858
    bccran
    Participant

    Maybe Brian has some inside scoop on why Woodford has been rat holed.

    #187859
    Ratsbuddy
    Participant

    Free

    When will Matz be back? Anybody got the scoop? Hopefully we hear from Jim Hayes tonight about both Matz and Fletcher.

    #187862
    kscardfan
    Participant

    Free

    Woodford was pretty dang good down the stretch. When the games had pressure on them. Never gave up over 3 runs in any game in Sept/Oct.

    #187872
    Bob Reed
    Participant

    Free

    “Perhaps Mo is indifferent towards Woodford, therefore, is going with Marmol’s recommendation but I can’t imagine Jake would be sitting in Memphis if Mo really wanted him in St. Louis.”

    On your very final point about Woodford’s demotion, I couldn’t concur more strongly, GScott. It’s Mo who decided to send Woodford to Memphis — probably because of the severity of the falling out between Jake and his manager. Maybe Marmol and Woodford can’t be in the same room together. Or maybe Mo figured it was best to keep Woodford more stretched out in AAA, to keep his trade value higher. Or maybe Mo assumed, hoped at least, that Marmol would eventually cool off, grow up, and come to his senses and realize that for the good of the team it would be best to have Jake Woodford contributing in the majors in a role commensurate with his track record. (Because that’s what grown-ups do.) I dunno.

    In any case, it doesn’t matter one whit if Woodford is in the majors or not, as long as Marmol is using him as Pointless Fungible Mopup Garbageman. And that is exactly where Marmol indefensibly assigned him as soon as the season began. And even as Woodford pitched effectively in that humiliating role, Marmol kept him jailed there. It is obvious now, that no matter what happens with Woodford or anyone else, Jake will never get a chance with Marmol as manager.

    Think about this extraordinary fact: As Zack Thompson makes the start tonight, Zack becomes the FOURTH different starting pitcher this season under Marmol who has had no history of even Triple-A starting success. It’s an overarching managerial philosophy known as “Anybody But Woodford.”

    It’s hard to know how to react to Marmol’s unprofessional nonsense, because we have never seen it from a Cardinal manager before. Literally never. (Not in my 50 years as a fan anyway.) But we have well over two months of irrefutable evidence: Ollie Marmol is managing a major league baseball team while prioritizing an intractable personal grudge, rather than prioritizing winning baseball. It’s ugly, and for his particular occupation, in my opinion unethical.

    #187881
    sjeff70
    Participant

    Free

    I don’t see him like you all do but I’m willing to give him a chance, which I think is all you guys are asking.

    #187898
    1982 willie
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Oh it’s ok sjeff70, I can see why some wouldn’t be too impressed. It’s just that he’s pitched well enough to get a chance at a end spot on the rotation when available. Far more than the guy that pitched tonight for us. Zack needs more time at triple A. It can help him, getting beat up here isn’t right now. I argue the only thing the minors is doing for Woodford is demoralizing him. A person could say he just man up or whatever and work harder but after a point of pretty much proving yourself vs the other contenders, it’s just human to get frustrated and out of focus. It’s why I say, trade him or treat him right.

    #187901
    mudville
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I agree. Trade him or treat him right.

    #187911
    bccran
    Participant

    It’s a sad situation. It was highlighted when a player called Packy Naughton got a start before Woodford this season. Naughton had a short major league stint with the Angels last season. He gave up 16 earned runs in 22 2/3 innings.

    #187916
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    For the record, I am very pro-Woodford. I have consistently ranked him high in our annual prospect rankings over the years. I would always prefer to see a Cardinal farmhand get the opportunity over a veteran reject from outside the organization. My point is that I strongly believe that the Cardinal front office controls almost everything and the manager takes his cue from above if he knows what is good for him.

    #187917
    bccran
    Participant

    When Woodford was at AAA, he was the starter in the AlL Star game for the PCL vs. the International League.

    #187925
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    John Denton in his “Cardinal Beat”….. he was talking with Mozeliak about his C-19 episode…. Mo is OK but was shut in at home for 10 days. They got to the Cards and I found his take on the bullpen interesting.

    Go back to the game in [St. Petersburg when the Cardinals lost on a 10th-inning walk-off homer] and people are questioning, ‘Why did [Ryan Helsley] only have one inning? Why did [Marmol pitch Drew VerHagen]?’ But as a manger, you’ve got to have a long view. It’s hard because human nature is to get the win and get out, but you can’t do that at all costs.”

    Mozeliak admitted there are pitchers in the Cardinals’ bullpen who will need to improve their performances, or the team will be forced to look for help from outside sources via trades. Mozeliak’s offseason additions — pitchers Steven Matz, Aaron Brooks, Nick Wittgren, Packy Naughton and VerHagen and hitters Albert Pujols and Corey Dickerson — have yet to provide much consistent production, but the team’s architect is taking the patient approach in his evaluations because, as he likes to point out, it’s a long season. He is hopeful that improving health to the starting staff can have a positive effect on the relief corps. The difference between 2021 and ’22, Mozeliak said, is that while last year’s team was beset by injuries at this point — leading to a June swoon — the present-day Cards seem to be trending upward.

    It sounds like the fans need to be patient.

    #187986
    Bob Reed
    Participant

    Free

    These numbers include the first half of today’s doubleheader. Redbird ERAs and innings pitched since Sept. 1, 2021. Pitchers listed alphabetically and sans comment.

    Cabrera: 1.94 ERA in 41.2 IP
    Gallegos: 2.97 ERA in 39.1 IP
    Hudson: 3.15 ERA in 74.1 IP
    Mikolas: 3.51 ERA in 105 IP
    Wainwright: 3.04 ERA in 109.2 IP
    Woodford: 2.83 ERA in 47.2 IP

    #187987
    Bob Reed
    Participant

    Free

    “I would always prefer to see a Cardinal farmhand get the opportunity over a veteran reject from outside the organization. My point is that I strongly believe that the Cardinal front office controls almost everything and the manager takes his cue from above if he knows what is good for him.”

    I’m with you all the way, on your first point, GScott. The Cards have done such a solid job during the Mozeliak years at developing from within, it’s usually been more successful (and always more efficient, or cheaper if you prefer) to go with their own guys, both pitchers and position players. (What would the past 5, 6 years look like if the Cardinals had never traded for Ozuna or signed Fowler and the pricey “proven veteran relievers”? It’s a thought experiment that would only make me sad.)

    But if your second observation is taken at face value, it sounds like you’re saying the same front office that presumably fully endorsed Jake Woodford as a starting pitcher during last year’s exhilarating September playoff chase has now decided that Woodford doesn’t deserve any role within the team at all — or at most, Garbagetime Mopup Eunuch.

    And I find that extremely unlikely. Unless, again, the reason they want Woodford to have no role this year is a personal kerfuffle between him and Ollie. I find that scenario quite plausible, and it would be 100% Marmol’s responsibility to fix that. That’s part of his job description, part of what MLB managers have to do: keep personal matters from infecting their roster decisions, lineups, pitcher deployment, etc.

    #187989
    bccran
    Participant

    I get the idea that Mo puts up with zero insubordination.
    And he may expect Ollie to be the same way with his players.
    So if Woodford is upset that they haven’t given him a chance and is belly aching about it, they may be “teaching him a lesson”.

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