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If the Rays are active, they must spot a market inefficiency. It would probably behoove the Cards to approach things the same way.
If the Rays are looking… maybe see if we can pluck Wander Franco…. It will be expensive, but he looks like the next big young sure thing. He has all the tools and his arrival lines up with other potential bats for us
Can we do it without killing our chances in the present? And give the fish what they want?
Knizner + CMart + Thorres + Seijas
Knizner can step right in for them and provide long term cheap production
CMart can be the starter he wants to be for them on the near side
Thorres still has plenty of upside
Seijas is a good lottery ticket IMOIf this is light, consider Gomber or Ponce or Genesis or Oviedo if they are wanting ready to go pitching…if they want hitting Thomas, Sosa, Schrock, Ravelo, Dean, Nagowski are all on the table
I’d prefer the stability even if expensive (in multiple ways) of Arenado, but if we are more keen to save money…maybe we can deal from out prospect abundance, we are going to have to leave some guys exposed…why not try to clear a little space to bring in a phenom prospect
A 2022 (maybe part of 21) lineup of:
Franco-ss
Carlson-rf/cf
Dejong-3b/dh/SS
Goldy-1/dh
Gorman-dh/1b/3b
ONeill-lf/rf
Yadi/Herrera-c
Edman-2b/UTIL
Bader-CFJack, Hud, Mik, Libertore, Thompson
Hicks,Reyes,Helsley,GallegosNot bad for no FA signings…
still, i’d rather pay Arenado…or go big for Chapman from Oakland
Franco would be a complete no go from the Rays, I would think. Fangraphs has him as the #11 trade value in all of baseball and he’s still got at least a year to go before he would make his debut. They slapped an 80 grade on him for future value, which I’m not sure when the last time that happened was. Our own Bob Reed, I believe, called him a future Hall of Famer.
All that being said, a trade the Rays *might* bite on, given the excessively high ceiling (and frankly, high floor too) for Franco would be Jack Flaherty plus Gorman or Carlson and a guy like Rondon or Oviedo.
That’s a lot to give up, but Franco may be that good.
I don’t see us matching up with the Rays on a trade because they are going to be a buyer and the Cardinals are not going to be a seller. We might stand pat but we won’t be selling.
This is from a Baseball America article about the trade deadline:
In response to an inquiry from Baseball America, a Major League Baseball spokesperson said the league has not put any mechanism in place for a trade to be reversed if a traded player opts out.
How about this scenario? A player is traded from team A to team B. He decides he does not want to report to team B for whatever reason – COVID or otherwise. So he opts out and team B is screwed.
What starting pitching might be available? Sometimes, our team pulls a Larry Walker type value player out of thin air. The SP market seems thin though.
What starting pitching might be available? Sometimes, our team pulls a Larry Walker type value player out of thin air. The SP market seems thin though.
Clevinger, Plesac, Lynn, Bundy, Cueto, Gausman, and Walker are some off of the top of my head. Maybe even Bauer if the Reds give up hope.
Clevenger’s price would be very high. Perhaps tempered by his stupidity, he may be a possibility. Interesting too that Cleveland comes to St Louis just before the trade deadline.
We need to be realistic. Mo’s MO is to not trade for a rental but for a player who will be here at least 1+ years.
I like inquiring about Clevinger, with 2 years old control would be similar to the Ozuna trade. Other than trade cost, the big thing about Clevinger is maturity. Maybe an incident like this will help him grow up.
Long time reader, love the site. Lots of talk about Whit Merrifield. Like him as a player, not sure of the overall fit. Lots of people want him, what about a 3 way trade, getting something from a 3rd team that fits our need better?
I like inquiring about Clevinger, with 2 years old control would be similar to the Ozuna trade. Other than trade cost, the big thing about Clevinger is maturity. Maybe an incident like this will help him grow up.
Clevinger is very talented, so he would always be of interest. I sort of wonder if there’d be interest in Cleveland making a swap of two guys who probably could use a fresh start at this point…Clevinger for Carlos Martinez? Of course, Cmart hasn’t been as good as recently as Clevinger, so the Cards would probably have to give extra in the trade. Maybe make it a Jager special and start including extra players?
Carlos Martinez/Tyler O’Neill for Mike Clevinger/Ethan Hankins (big RHP talent)
The Cards start Carlson in LF the rest of the year and use Thomas as the 4th OF or perhaps Bader if he cools off again. I hate to give up O’Neill as I think he’ll get it together, but Clevinger is a big talent too. He does have a few durability concerns plus the potential maturity issue but that’s Carlos too.
Carlos Martinez/Tyler O’Neill for Mike Clevinger/Ethan Hankins (big RHP talent)
I like the idea and I think that would be a good deal for the Cardinals. Not sure the Indians would go for that. It depends on how much they have soured on Clevinger. Their FO doesn’t strike me as the type to make an emotional decision like that. The price for him will be very high.
Personally I like the idea of stacking up in the bullpen to shorten games. The Royals have Rosenthal and Kennedy available but they are both rentals. It would be nice to find a reliever with more team control.
I like the idea and I think that would be a good deal for the Cardinals. Not sure the Indians would go for that. It depends on how much they have soured on Clevinger. Their FO doesn’t strike me as the type to make an emotional decision like that. The price for him will be very high.
One consideration is that the Indians outfield situation is dire, to say the least. Their top 4 outfielders have OPS+ of 50, -23 (demoted), 60 and 58. O’Neill isn’t much above that, but you can legitimately say that’s a small sample and that he’s likely going to be above average. I’m not sure you can with Cleveland.
Clevinger is good, but then again so is Carlos. Carlos has extra team control that might appeal to the Indians. Throw in O’Neill for them and we get an Oviedo-like arm (only pitched in A ball) thrown in and it’s a fairly even trade.
Worth noting that one of those struggling CLE OFs is Oscar Mercado, now back in the minors. Maybe the Cards were ok in trading him away after all? It would be even better if Jhon Torres comes through, but no ball in
2020 has to have hurt his chances.Clevinger is good, but then again so is Carlos. Carlos has extra team control that might appeal to the Indians. Throw in O’Neill for them and we get an Oviedo-like arm (only pitched in A ball) thrown in and it’s a fairly even trade.
How about CMart, O’Neill, and Helsley for Clevinger, Hankins and Hand?
Hmm…I like Hand as a bullpen option. His Ks are down slightly so far. Admittedly, I think Helsley is gonna be a great bullpen arm, too. Maybe the Tribe would go for that trade.
I am now much more open to trading Flaherty. Perhaps Plesac from Cleveland and another prospect?
This is a joke, right? 3+ years of one of the best pitchers in the game, a legitimate ace..for a guy who was never a top prospect, considered a #4 type, and got suspended for breaking team rules and then lying about it while handling about as poorly as possible? Unless the prospect is Shane Bieber the Cards should just hang up on that call.
Okay, so try a different target, although I disagree on Plesac’s upside. Perhaps we could upgrade a bat as well. There was a post about getting Wander Franco. Now that would be something if he could be involved in a deal.
If the Cards were to trade Flaherty (and performance wise there is zero reason to do so), then the return would have to be a high profile impact bat or multiple highly acclaimed, ready to play arms. I’m not sure who matches that profile. Maybe the Yankees, but they’d have to trade from their big league roster. Maybe the Padres or Rays. I don’t see Flaherty alone being enough to get someone like Franco.
I know Franco is a stretch…but if you are wanting to deal and TB sees a true shot at something big this year…I think he coudl be getable…it will be expensive…but the Cardinals have ready to go good players
kind of like a reverse colby Rasmus deal….now Colby was never the #1 prospect liek Franco is, but I think we could offer a lot more than what we got back for Rasmus as we pushed to get that WS title
CMart + Knizner + Hudson + Montero + Bader
for
FrancoIt is a lot, i know…but if you arent willing to pony up the big bucks for Arenado I don’t see another impact bat coming for a long while…nor one that we would have at such a cheap price, this would depend a lot on the Rays valuing Carlos highly and with his two friendly options and their use of openeers and Carlos multi-tool nature it could work…
Hudson slots in well for their good defense
Bader adds to the defense they love
Knizner can be handed the reins right now, and the success of Kelly in ARZ should help with his pedigree
Montero is a solid young batDoes it weaken our chance to “go for it” now? yes, but not as much as i think Franco being added to the system long term helps it
CMart = Gomber
Hudson = Woodford/Oviedo
for a rotation of Jack, Waino, Ponce, Gomber, Kim, Woodford/Oviedo…Mikolas is back next year, Libertore and Thompson…and a bridge Free Agent SP could work, we have good success at finding themKnizner = Herrera
Bader = Thomas
Montero = not a big deal, but would clear space for Thorres to be added to 40manBy 2022 we could have a team that goes: Edman, Franco, Carlson, DeJong, Goldy, Gorman, ONeill, Herrera, Thomas
That is young (except for Goldy who could DH) and pretty cheap…allowing for money spent on a premiere veteran Ace if we want…by then I’d think the rotation could look like:
Jack, Libertore, Mik, Thompson, Gomber/Ponce/Oviedo/others….or snag a premiere Ace out there and you are set…the bullpen will also have cheap options too…Hicks, Reyes, Genesis, Helsley, GallegosNevertheless, it really isnt about Franco as much as it is my opinion that we can be ain position to add a premiere expensive player to this team…either through trade and money or money alone
The way i see it you can go get the big fish Arenado and make it work… and give up a little from the farm…or you can go big and touch the farm more and get a better younger cheaper prospect…and THEN spend on a big SP whom we may need because we dipped into the farm
There arent a lot of “can’t miss” prospects..but Franco seems like one… and if the Rays truly want to go for it now…AND not gut their system long term…the Cardinals can provide top shelf talent that also has control and/or manageable contracts…. other teams might be able to WOW you with some expensive talent that might fit the bill for immediate improvement…but the Cardinals can offer very good very cheap players that can help for a long while… yes, in exchange for a can’t miss prospect (who by the way has some very good players already playing in his way)
It is a small sample size but Arenado’s home/away splits this year are pretty extreme. Something to keep an eye on.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/splits/_/id/31261/nolan-arenado
In a weird season like this I dont mind them….he is well rounded and his track record speak plenty…
I dont think it helps that in this weird season he has to deal with LAD, HOU, OAK, SD….he gets ARZ,TEX,SEA too… but LAD and OAK are probably the two best teams in baseball in this weird year…and SD is looking impressive…and HOU even in a down year is tough
There are few triple crown possible baseball players…Arenado is one…and he can add potential platinum glover too…
He hasnt had a WAR less than 5.6 since 2014…and it was 4.1 in his second year
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