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Why would they give up that much cheap and controllable talent? When teams get that sort of a haul for a player, said player has several years of cheap control left, not someone getting market value or beyond. I don’t see Col getting anything close to that in talent back if they end up trading him. Maybe a Woodford and O’neill?
I agree with GameCard, Liberatore doesn’t get traded.
It might take that kind of money being eaten to get the FO to actually do a deal to help the offense.
I don’t see the preciousness people have with Libertore, it’s not like we drafted him and have watched him come up. On paper he looks good, but so does Thompson and he is closer
We got Libertore for JMart and Randy…good deal it seems…but Libertore even if he was ready right now woudlnt help the offense
It might be a lot of starting talent, but so what? we cant play any of them except maybe ONeill..so no matter their value they are less valuable if we dont have spots for them…Libertore would be the big piece…but Knizner has Herrera on his heels and Yadi still in his way….Woodford has a ton around him and so does Montero
ONeill even in the starting lineup pales in what Arenado provides
With Arenado in the lineup we are LESS dependent on having to replace Bader in CF because of his bat which is what i would prefer to do and i think the organization wants to do
Arenado displaces Carp, but that bolsters the bench and potentially the OF mix if he would get time out there in LF
It makes our infield potentially the best IF defense in the league
Yadi, Goldy, Wong, DeJong, Arenadoand our OF defense less than great but with Bader in CF who can make up for lack of range in the corners, as well as having solid bench and AAA guys to make it pretty great if Carp and Fowler falter
LF Carp/Thomas/Edman…Carlson
CF Bader/Thomas/Edman…Carlson
RF Fowler/Thomas/Edman….CarlsonI’d love to not trade Libertore, but i don’t see Colorado jumping for woodford and ONeill…they’d rather wait until teams gets desperate…. even if my trade scenario was a bit desperate in the value going out it is done so with knowledge of the replaceability of it from within…as well as with the knowledge that money coming back as well as trying to get the opt out waived as being key
Cards wouldnt even offer the Woodford ONeill deal because they would complain they cant afford Arenado…money has to be a part of this deal…and i dont see them wanting Carp or Fowler, and the only other way woudl be for them to eat some of the money…that costs talent…and for that kind of money GOOD talent….and at least we have that kind of talent in positions that are more redundant or blocked
Id love to keep Libertore…but i dont see any other prospects we want to trade being as valuable to entice the the ROX to take on money…which seems the main reason the Cards wont jump
Jager, I appreciate how you give reasoning behind all of your proposals. They certainly are interesting. In this case, I just think giving up a top 50 prospect, another of your top 5 prospects, a starting quality outfielder, a very solid catching prospect and a fill in back of the rotation guy seems like a lot. I feel like the Cards would need to get something even above Arenado in return, since Nolan is basically a market value asset at this point. Whether that would be a prospect, bullpen arm, etc, I’m not sure but it would have to be something.
A good organizational move would be to package Knizner and Muñoz for a very good prospect. Knizner will only lose value by sitting in AAA and with DeJong and Wong set, and Miller, Edman and Sosa for backups and depth, he just doesn’t seem likely to provide much value.
Trading them while they still have value makes the most sense.
Trading them while they still have value makes the most sense.
Until Yadi gets hurt and you’re depending on Wieters and ?? to be the MLB catcher.
I couldn’t find the most appropriate thread, so here goes:
Would it be possible in September to change your 27th and 28th roster spots mid month? A lot of injuries can occur in a month.
ST25, in that case, Weiters would undoubtedly be the starter of course and then they would have to make room for Godoy on the 40 man and call him up.
– Godoy is my choice because his bat isn’t awful (I didn’t realize how decent he’s been actually) and he’s thrown out 42% of attempted base thieves
– Hernandez would hit worse than Bader, but does have a little MLB experience
– Julio Rodriguez probably isn’t ready
– Chris Chinea could potentially come up and serve as a blowout/emergency catcher
– Ivan Herrera is sure holding his own in the AFL and ST, but due to his high level of potential, he still needs to develop with a normal time frame so they don’t “stunt his growth” as an Allstar catcherTo add on about Godoy, he has a .274 BA, .362 OBP, 224 K, 176 BB over 1,738 MILB plate appearances, he just has very little power. He did have a .785 OPS between Memphis and Springfield last year. Also considering the 42% caught stealing rate, that looks like the makeup of a future backup catcher for $550k in my opinion.
CFICT, what kind of prospect do you think the Cards could get back for Knizner and Munoz? Knizner seems like the kind of guy who could put up an .800 OPS in regular playing time if needed…you’d hate to give him away unless they got a good player or two in return.
Packaged together I would think they could get something close to a back end top 100 type. Thoughts?
I don’t have a great feel for who needs a near-MLB ready catcher and has assets in that range to trade. Maybe a college guy drafted in ’18 or ’19 who’s likely to be ready for the bigs soon?
I think the ROX actually could use a future catcher, I like Wolters but he seems more backup than a starter.
This came up in the Carp thread but….Yankees need pitching with Severino going down
I saw maybe Andujar…but how about Clint Frazier?
He isnt terrible in the OF, has decent speed, good pop, only 25, and no real future in the Yankees outfield, would add to our OF glut but has a bit more experience and success in the bigs (in limited time)
Ponce de Leon looks like a limited upside, cheap, but dependable option for a team needing a 5. Gomber, Genesis, Woodford, Rondon all can take on that same role…even Kim if CMart takes the rotation spot and Mikolas is healthy when he comes back
Ponce wouldnt be enough…add in Seijas, young still upside arm, and a closer OFer lefty…just hasnt fit in with us yet in Williams
Ponce, Seijas, Williams
for
Frazierstarting point idea…but the trade simulator has this deal with Yankees getting more back in value
In the offseason between the 2017 and 2018 baseball seasons, the St. Louis Cardinals made three trades of outfielders. They traded Stephen Piscotty to the Oakland Athletics for two prospects, Yairo Munoz and Max Schrock; they traded Randal Grichuk to the Toronto Blue Jays for reliever Dominic Leone and prospect Conner Greene; and lastly they traded prospects Mags Sierra, Sandy Alcantara, Zac Gallen, and Daniel Castano for Marcell Ozuna. — Ben Cerutti- Birds on the Black today.
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Cardinals received:
Marcell Ozuna
Yairo Munoz
Dominic Leone
Max Schrock
Conner Greene
Cardinals gave up:
Stephen Piscotty
Randal Grichuk
Sandy Alcantara
Zac Gallen
Mags Sierra
Daniel Castano
I don’t like to cry over spilled milk but this is why so many question the FO’s inadequacy and their getting the short end of the stick too often. They gave up some budding talent for a handful of gravel.
Unexpectedly, Gallen looks like the best pitcher we traded. Although it is amazing the number of quality and number of pitchers we have drafted. Compare that to guru Theo, who has one home grown starter during his tenure with the Sox and Cubs. Granted, his position players drafted have been stellar.
My previous comment makes wonder whether it is easier/better to trade pitching or hitting for roster holes? Assuming a fair trade, not an overpay. I would think pitching would be harder to come by.
I don’t think those trades are as lopsided as they appear.
Alcantara and Gallen have potential upside but they still haven’t proven much. Alcantara ate up a lot of innings last year but his stats were only modestly good. I wouldn’t call him elite yet. Gallen had good numbers last year but only in 80 innings. He still isn’t proven.
Piscotty and Grichuk aren’t better than the OF’s we currently have in my opinion.
Sierra is at best a AAAA player.
Castano hasn’t made it past AA so who knows what he will be.
Angels get – Knizner and Gant
Cards get – Brandon Marsh and Jose Bonnilla.Knizner has nothing left to prove in the minors, with Yadi and Weiters locked in for this year and Godoy a viable backup option if one of them goes down and Herrera likely ready in 2022 as a backup that’s actually used, they need to trade Knizner while he still has good value.
The Angels have a CF you might have heard of, Upton under contract for 3 more years and Adell coming up shortly, they don’t have a spot in the OF for Marsh and could definitely use an upgrade at catcher.
Marsh was only in AA last year, but could be the LH power hitter in RF that the team needs after Fowlers contract is finally over.
Jose Bonilla is a lottery ticket with a sky high ceiling. He’s not even in some of their top 30 lists and hasn’t played in the states yet.
Would you agree Marsh and Gorman are close in prospect value? For me they are, with Gorman having maybe a bit more value. If so, would you trade Gorman for the equivalent of Gant & Knizner? I wouldn’t, Angels shouldn’t either, too lopsided. I like your target.
Would you agree Marsh and Gorman are close in prospect value?
I wouldn’t agree with that. Gorman is 2-1/2 years younger and one level behind. Marsh might be a bit better average hitter, but I’m not seeing anything that says he’s got the kind of power that Gorman has. Marsh might be a better defender (although Gorman is potentially well underrated, as Bob Reed’s research has shown) but at a less important position. Gorman is at least a tick or two ahead of Marsh in my book, and I’m of the feeling that Nolan is going to really rocket up the lists when he hits Springfield, a la Dylan Carlson.
25, not knowing Marsh as well I used fangraphs which has both players as FV 55, and their overall top 100 ranks Marsh at 36 and Gorman at 38, pre-2020. I gave Gorman the edge for the same level consideration you mentioned. While I realize other sites may differ, Gorman was as close as I could come to Marshs value, to make my example of equal value.
While they are not a spot on match, their difference is minimal imo, compared to the value difference between Knizner / Gant for Marsh / plus. I think the Angels pass.
If the Cards had to sweeten the pot a little to even up the deal, I’d be on board with that. I don’t think Marsh is as “valuable” as Gorman due to age, position and power potential, but still a very very good prospect.
The Angels are desperate for pitching, what if the Cards added to the pot and gave them Knizner, Gant and Woodford for Marsh, Jose Bonilla and another lottery ticket prospect? I would do that all day long.
With their extreme lack of pitching, I wonder what they would give up for a Ponce/Gomber type? With the depth the Cards have, I also wonder if they would be interested in Miles when he is healthy?
The Angels would certainly be the team in need of pitching. They have spent tons of money on Trout, Pujols, Upton, and Rendon but their pitching staff is a shambles. It is basically Ohtani (TJ Surgery) and a bunch of reclamation projects.
Having said that would the Cardinals be willing to part with pitching depth considering Mikolas is injured, Waino could be teetering on the edge, CMart hasn’t started in two years, Kim has never pitched in MLB, etc…..
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