August 24, 2019 at 11:47 am #103572
What would an extension for Flaherty look like?
He can’t be as good as he has been since the ASB, but his season as a whole is what we should expect I would assume. With another full year at 600k, then (estimates of course) arb 1 at 6M, arb 2 at 12M and arb 3 at 18M. Those are all made up numbers but an overall decent estimate. So I’m assuming between $35-40M over the next 4 years.
Would 5/60M (2020-2024) with a club option for 2025 @ 20M entice him to stay a potentially extra 2 years? Give him a $5M signing bonus in Nov-Dec 2019, which for tax purposes makes sense for him and the Cards, and to buy a bigger house and settle in to STL and a nice condo in PB, then 10M in 20-2022, 12.5M in 23-24.
At only 23, that still would put him at 29-30 going into FA and the Cards get him through his prime. I think this is a win win for both sides and I’d consider that a fair number. My favorite question, to much or little?August 24, 2019 at 12:24 pm #103575
Interesting thought. At first blush, my thought would be that it would look something like Cmart’s extension. Carlos got 5 years and $51 million and then options at $17M and $18M for a potential total of 7 years and $86M. Adjusting a little for inflation and your proposal sounds decent. One issue, and I don’t know how big of a deal this really is…would be that Flaherty hasn’t been too shy in talking about the system being unfair, and last off-season he did technically not agree to his contract. So it’s possible he may be averse to an extension or may drive a harder bargain.
Still, 7 years and $100M potentially would put him in Acuña territory, which I’m not sure he deserves but it would still be a potential bargain. Maybe they settle on one option year and it’s 6/$80M like you said.August 24, 2019 at 12:26 pm #103576
You are probably in the ballpark but a little high in my opinion.
Kris Bryant is making $12.9M in his second arb year and he is a former MVP.
Paul DeJong got 6yrs for $26M and a couple of extensions.
CMart got 5 yrs for $51M and a couple of extensions.
I would peg Flaherty for 6 years at $60M. Having said that I am not a fan of extensions for young players. It can work sometimes and I understand the idea of cost certainty for the team but the psychological aspect of it doesn’t show up on the spreadsheets. Too often humans relax once they reach a level of security. I would prefer to see these guys have to earn it year to year until they get closer to free agency. Then we can discuss extension. It may cost a little more that way if they are good but you also might avoid a big burden.August 24, 2019 at 2:29 pm #103589
I’d forgotten about the “unfair system” feelings he expressed in the past. That might up the price a little, but could also motivate him to get a deal done.
CMart shouldn’t be used as a comparison in my opinion, he’s just as talented if not more than Flaherty, but the Cards can’t be oblivious to his off the field attitude of not being committed to being a great MLB player.August 24, 2019 at 2:44 pm #103590Cardinals27ParticipantPaid - Annual
I think they need to bring back the waiver trade deadline, or push back the trade deadline, perhaps until mid/end of August.August 24, 2019 at 4:19 pm #103596
Regarding the deadline, I agree Cards27, what was the reasoning behind not wanting the waiver deadline? With the 2nd wild card, a lot of teams were stuck in the middle. I’m sure SF for one is wishing they would have sold, and teams like the Mets are wishing they would have added another piece.August 24, 2019 at 4:26 pm #103597Cardinals27ParticipantPaid - Annual
Yes, teams weren’t sure whether they were a contender or pretender. A few weeks makes a lot of difference.August 25, 2019 at 12:19 pm #103673
There seems to be some momentum to moving the deadline to August 15 but I would prefer they keep it at July 31. To me it interferes with the integrity of the game when a team can change its identity dramatically so late in the season. Promoting from the minors is different because that is just having good depth and organizations with good depth should be rewarded.
If they move it to August 15 then GM’s will want it at August 31, then September 15…..before you know it we will be making trades the day before Game 7 of the World Series.
Teams have four months to decide what they need and don’t need. If they can’t figure it out in four months then maybe they are in the wrong job.
August 25, 2019 at 2:23 pm #103690
- This reply was modified 4 months, 3 weeks ago by gscottar.
I think the impetus for moving it back would be to better identify teams that should be selling vs buying and thus having a more exciting deadline. I’d be on board with it. The “they have four months” is fine and dandy but you can’t tell me that if the deadline was last week rather than three weeks ago, we wouldn’t have seen a lot more activity.August 25, 2019 at 2:54 pm #103693
but you can’t tell me that if the deadline was last week rather than three weeks ago, we wouldn’t have seen a lot more activity.
We don’t know that. I imagine there would still be teams saying “we need more time.” Paralysis by analysis seems to rule the day.
It also really puts sellers in a bind. How much value can you expect to get in a six week rental? Pretty much nothing I expect.August 27, 2019 at 2:25 pm #103974
Going back to the trade deadline situation, 5 weeks from the all star game would actually make a lot of sense. This year it would have been the 13th of Aug, it would be good for the game (creating excitement on a Tues) and give teams a full month after the break to figure out if they are in or out.August 28, 2019 at 8:40 pm #1042361964cardsParticipantPaid - Annual
Cardinals have released Robinson. Wish him all the best moving forward. I still do not understand why the Cardinals signed him.August 28, 2019 at 9:45 pm #104241
He was a left-handed bat that we needed…he never worked out because he was injured.August 28, 2019 at 10:07 pm #104242Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
Robinson was not signed. He was a trade acquisition in return for another spare part, Patrick Wisdom.
.August 29, 2019 at 8:24 am #10427114NyquisTParticipantPaid - Annual
Bleacher Report put out a list of one player from each MLB team that they feel could be traded with their explanation why. Naturally is is speculation but there is some merit to what the story states.
I only add this to the topic for thought and conversation. Agree… disagree?
St. Louis Cardinals: RHP Carlos Martinez
After months of lying in the weeds, the St. Louis Cardinals have made their move to the top of the NL Central. But regardless of how that pans out, they’re going to face some tough choices this winter.
They’ll need to figure out an outfield that will likely be more of a mystery once Marcell Ozuna hits free agency. Their pitching staff also stands to lose Adam Wainwright and Michael Wacha.
The Cardinals might angle for a trade that would free up money and bring MLB-ready talent back to St. Louis. To this end, they could save about $24 million by moving two-time All-Star Carlos Martinez, whose recent lack of durability has been an issue with the team anyway.August 29, 2019 at 10:46 am #104287
That would be one possible way to free up some money for next year but it would have to be a very significant return for me to consider it seriously. This team needs all of the starters we can get so trading away a potentially important piece of our rotation should only happen if the return was huge.August 29, 2019 at 11:16 am #104293
Nyq, that’s something I was actually thinking about the other day and it makes a lot of sense. The Cardinals, and maybe more importantly CMart, need to decide if he’s going to be a starter or a reliever long term. If the team thinks he actually cares about his career in baseball, then keep him as a SP, but if they have their doubts, then move him for a few good prospects and use the money to find another top line starter which has to be a major focus this offseason.
A team I think matches up extremely well is the Padres, they have been known to be looking for a “veteran” SP for a while now and also have a stock pile of top level prospects to deal. Adrian Morejan – LH SP (#84 on mlb.com) and Xavier Edwards – SH 2B (#75 on mlb.com) would be about right in my opinion. The Cardinals really need to find a LHSP in my opinion. The Padres have no use for Edwards, their infield is about as set over the next half decade as it could be. His time line to MLB matches up perfectly with Wong’s contract running out also.
Who says no?August 29, 2019 at 11:54 am #104294Minuteman3ParticipantFree
I agree with trading off CMart this off season. Sure his save record is looking good but it is also deceptive of what he has actually done in those saves. Walks, hits, home runs and just enough outs and double plays to save his skin. I don’t think he could be an SP again because of an acknowledged weak wing. He definitely has talent and best fits as either a long reliever or just a late inning reliever. I think any team that gets him would opt to use him as an SP and after the first injury put him into the bullpen.
I know this is not true but there are days when Carlos looks like he is on some kind of drug – mainly by the look in his eyes. That is no doubt untrue because of testing but he sure seems to have low spells before his baby daddy Yadi slaps him awake.
I am pro-Ozuna on the basis of we know exactly what he offers and not many others could offer the same. It’s the old bird in hand vs two in the bush thing.August 29, 2019 at 12:13 pm #104295
That’s an intriguing duo, CFCT. Edwards seems to be trending up as well, so his ceiling could be a bit higher.
Personally, I like to acknowledge that Cmart has something left in the tank that makes him valuable enough that I’d look for an elite prospect in return. A smart organization could easily turn Carlos into an elite pitcher with 4 reasonably priced years of control and though I’d like the two guys above in the Cards system, I might aim higher. The Twins always seem to be looking for cheap starters and they’ve got a good system. Lewis has had a down year and could be valued into the price range of a Cmart. Kiriloff has been good but not great, but IMO will be a threat to win batting titles. The Astros have some good top end talent although they’re not as deep. Kyle Tucker has the same hitting chops as Kiriloff IMO. I realize these are OFers (maybe you trade O’Neill or a couple of the other guys for other upgrades) but elite talent plays anywhere. Plus you send Carlos to the AL where if he blossoms, you don’t pay as heavy a price.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts. If you can get decent value for Carlos, I’d be fine with a trade. But you’d then have to plug a rotation hole that Carlos would otherwise fill. (If healthy I can’t imagine him being worse than a #3 starter, 3.50 ERA/180 IP).August 29, 2019 at 1:41 pm #104299
I had a former MLB player that is still involved with baseball as an instructor tell me last weekend that many current players are still juicing.August 29, 2019 at 4:16 pm #104303mudvilleParticipantPaid - Annual
I have consistently believed that to be true. How else can you explain certain players going from next to nothing to having an MVP type year literally overnight, or how a player who is pushing 40, or who is even past 40, can play like a 28 year old? To me, it looks like nowadays, the strategy for players is to use the juice until they get a big contract, then stop using it and let the sportswriters/pundits cover for them by selling reasons why they no longer produce the big numbers. The owners and their front offices are surely complicit in this. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be happening. I’m not sure how players beat the testing issue, but they do. Maybe the clubs tell them when the testing is coming so as to give them a chance to drink something that nullifies the testing? I don’t know.
I think the juice is doing more harm to the game than anybody realizes. It fosters a fake game because the competition is fake.
I think the juice hurts the players more than they realize. They have to live with what they’ve done, and keep it hidden within themselves.August 29, 2019 at 4:20 pm #104304
The same guy also told me that many of the club trainers were involved.August 29, 2019 at 4:39 pm #104306CariocaCardinalParticipantPaid - Monthly
CFCT – I would consider that an unacceptable return for Carlos given his team friendly contractAugust 29, 2019 at 11:51 pm #104322
Minuteman, regarding your comment about looking like he’s on drugs, no idea what the drugs could be, but I agree 100% his eyes look awful some games. Knowing what I know, he’s highly likely just really hung over and probably had a little puff puff right before the game.August 30, 2019 at 12:02 am #104323
Carioca, what do you think would be a fair return? Morejon I feel is way under ranked, much like several of the Cards prospects “cough cough Rondon & Herrera”. He is the key piece in my scenario.
In regards to replacing CMart, Wade Miley might be a realistic target to be a #3 type starter, and won’t break the bank. He’s not an ace but very solid and consistent and a lefty which I feel they really need in the rotation. Having some consistency would sure lower the BP for Pugs!
Are there any realistic trade targets out there for an ace for a team in need of 2 or 3 MLB ready OF’s? I can seem to come up with anything that makes sense.
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