July 9, 2019 at 12:46 pm #97402
Peralta + BRadley for Woodford + Montero + Schrock + Capel
Drop Montero from that deal and maybe I’d go for it. Still not sure it brings us much value back.July 9, 2019 at 12:56 pm #97403
Examples of Cardinals stretch run additions who mattered:
Will Clark 2000, 1.9 bWAR
Woody Williams 2001, 2.2 bWAR
Larry Walker 2004, 0.9 bWAR
Rafael Furcal 2011, 0.8 bWAR
Edward Mujica 2012, 1.2 bWAR
etc…July 9, 2019 at 1:02 pm #97407
<They got Murphy last year for nothing when we could have used him and IMO that swung the the season last year for the Cubs.>
Yep, old Murph got them 2nd place. As Bear Bryant said, “Second place is like kissing your sister.”July 9, 2019 at 3:31 pm #97422
Murphy would have been useful if a team could’ve afforded to use him very situationally — as a pinch hitter against righties.
Maybe it’s just me, but sometimes I think Maddon/Theo focus too heavily on how a player’s strength will help them and will extend his usage into areas where he is not as likely to succeed. Sometimes it looks creative and sometimes it looks like they’re reaching. They will roll the dice at times.July 9, 2019 at 4:31 pm #97431
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Cole Hamels was a far more important pick up than Murphy last year. Yet another move the Cardinals should have looked into.July 10, 2019 at 8:58 am #97454
Murphy helped get them in the playoffs…and more importantly…they got in and the Cardinals did not…i am sure Cardinals fans would have preferred MAKING the playoffs over NOT making the playoffs any day…so while you can belittle the achievement, it is only sour grapes as whatever the Cardinals did achieved even less
and WAR over 35 games?
over his 35games he hit: .297, 6 HRs, OPS .800, 41 hits and 65 TB
I look head to head against, last series of the year where we were still in it and Murphy was vital. Even not as a Cardinal his presence as a Cub DID make a difference in the Cardinals season.
5 for 10
Adams was 0 for 1 if that matters
5 for 17 in the 4 game PIT series before us
6 for 15 in the CWS series before that
2-4 in the AZ series before that
How we could have found a fit for him is potentially not as easy, but adding a guy who hit .297 for 35 games is FAR from a negative potential addition.
And in the CRUNCH time where the Cardinals were in it and needed the Cubs to falter not only head to head but also the Cardinals to win, he added a competent leadoff bat that helped them win 4 of their last 5 games included our head to head matchup.
Would he have helped the Cardinals win more? maybe, DID he help the Cubs get to the postseason (albeit briefly) absolutely.
and i do agree about Hamels too…though it seemed a big risk, that paid off for them, but the way he was going i am not sure it was a gamble worth doing for StL (though at the time i believe i may have suggested a few trades for him)July 10, 2019 at 10:00 am #97465
Preach on jager….you are absolutely correct….and the sad part is the Cubs got Murphy for absolutely nothing….nothing….
Thankfully the Brewers and Rockies spared us the anguish of watching the Cubs deep into October.
2018 is over so I know rehashing last year’s deadline may not seem relevant but the point is that when teams ahead of us get quality players for nothing then either something is wrong with the system or a bunch of front offices were asleep at the wheel…..
Let’s hope that the Cubs don’t get a free pass again this year….If they are going to better their team they should have to lose some assets like everyone else….the Cub welfare system should be shut down
July 10, 2019 at 10:52 am #97467
- This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by gscottar.
I am loving it. If we had gotten Mike Trout, Albert Pujols, Murphy, Donaldson and still wound up in 2nd place it would have meant nothing if, as most seem to preach, the goal is to win the World Series. Making the playoffs may be wonderful and bring in a few extra bucks but I am told over and over on these forums that only one thing matters – the World Series. Matheny was raked over the coals when the Cards failed to win in ’13 (as was Mo and anybody else that had a name associated with the FO).
But, using 20/20 hindsight, we can say that the same thing would have happened for the Cards if only they had gotten Murphy. All I say is that is pure guessing, nobody will ever know.
I just finished reading a book by Scott Kelly who spent one year on the International Space Station and he said the lesson he learned was to not concentrate on those items which you can only speculate and stay fast to those you can control. I am happy to let management run the team but I do recognize that a lot of fans like to run a lot of options for winning by other fans. Have at it but unless you control the actions you suggest be sure to realize that it is just fan talk and there is no use in bad mouthing those who are responsible.July 10, 2019 at 1:22 pm #97468
All I will add is that defense matters too and it was the reason Murphy’s bWAR was negative. Even younger, he was never a great fielder and he became a liability at second as he aged and dealt with a bad knee. He was talked about as being better suited to be a DH with his defense cited as a reason the Cubs did not try to bring him back.July 10, 2019 at 1:41 pm #97471
Matheny was raked over the coals when the Cards failed to win in ’13 (as was Mo and anybody else that had a name associated with the FO).
I guess I wasn’t on baseball forums in 2013 but was this the case? It seemed to me that most saw the Cards as a very good team that also had one of the top farm systems in the game, and had a bright future ahead for many years.July 10, 2019 at 1:47 pm #97472
MM3, I wasn’t directing my complaints just at the Cardinal front office. There were 14 other front offices complicit in the Murphy affair….only the Dodgers picked after the Cubs.
And I have never viewed the Cardinals as a world series or bust team and I don’t think Cardinal management does either. Their philosophy, which I share, is that we should be a playoff team each year and once in the playoffs anything can happen. Where I take it one step further is my desire to advance further each year than the Cubs, which we have not done since 2014.July 11, 2019 at 9:44 am #97521
i explicitly said that MAYBE the Cardinals would have gotten to the postseason with Murphy…not a for sure thing…what i said for sure was that he DID help the Cubs get there…and at our expense per his head to head matchups against us in crunch time
i also agree other teasm passed too…and it was no slam dunk of course…but we did have a need for another hitter, and we werent even for sure what that role would have been, because we signed ADams to help…and he really only was a pinch hitter…even in that role Murphy seems a fine addition if we were indeed looking for a pinch hitter who could help at 1b
I dont think the Cards woudl have brought him back either…but it’s not like they gave up anything for him…so who cares about the value post the postseason run?
MAtheny didnt get fired for not winning a world series, he got fired for not making the playoffs…all his personality and managerial traits dont matter if he keeps winning…and making the playoffs is the sign of that….
also the FO doesnt seem to talk about winning the WS…they talk and act in a way that is about getting to the playoffs…
sure, everyone WANTS World Series…but I am very proud of the Cardinals teams that make the WS and lose, or the ones that make the playoffs but bow out…sure it is disappointing…
but if you base your fandom and appreciation of your team on it winning the whole thing EVERY SINGLE YEAR…then every team is terrible and EVERY team is worthless and incompetent…. and it really isnt even baseball that you enjoy you just want to be on the side of the winner…and that is pretty egotistical…
and if that is the way you want to be…go for it…but pushing that ideal onto the entire fandom is pretty disrespectful…
i personally am very happy clapping and cheering for a team that plays well all year but misses the playoffs by a a game or two…or makes the playoffs and fizzles…i enjoy baseball for the season…the every day of it…the fact that winning or losing isnt the end all be all of enjoyment…the amount of games sheds the importance of any one game…makes it feel closer to real life…makes it feel closer to what personal achievement in life is…it is about slow and steady victories…with setbacks along the way…every now and then everything lines up and you get moments of the highest highs…and it is unique and great…but baseball and the season is like the rest of it…the rest of life…it doesnt have to be only in the service of those highest highs…you can find minor victories and minor joys along the way that make life so much more full and meaningful…baseball is a very real parallel to that for me…
which is why i am more down on this team than many others…it is so inconsistent that I am doubting i am watching skill, and instead more luck….and that doesnt feel like there is any control to it, that in my parallel to life that i have no control over my life…that no matter if i work hard that i can do anything about it…and that is unsettling…it doesnt make me want to stop watching baseball or this team..or rooting them on as we go…it just doesnt feel very fun and linked to my personal joy when it comes to baseball
I dont watch baseball to see winning every day, and that is probably the problem, the game is being taught now not for the long season but for immediate gratification…launch angle for HRs or nothing…strikeout or HR…shorten the game, remove the skill and embrace the luck…that is just so boring to me…
off my soapbox…sorry…obviously all that is me…you can disagree entirely and be whatever fan you want to be…i just dont have to embrace your fandom just like you may disagree with mine and not partake in it….if that isnt right to you, then we have a problem…
back on topic
I am still bothered that writers keep saying that a starting pitcher is what we are missing…what is the point of adding a starter (especially a rental) and losing the prospects to get them, if the offense cant hit and support them…. it makes more sense to me to do the harder work and fix the offense through tough decisions on trades and finding the right types of hitters that are lacking from this team….THEN you push for another starter
to me SHORT term vets seems the best way to deal with the roster construction and contracts and prospects we have coming…it isn’t as flashy as a teardown…but it seems to fit better….we just dont have the prospects that area ready to make a difference so dumping wont work…and i dont think we have the prospects to bring back the super high level young players or expensive superstars either…
without moves…i think we will see Randy Arozarena really soon
-Bader down Randy up and starting…ONeill stays until Ozuna is back…then best of those 2 stay
-Edman starts 6days a week until he slumps bad, rotating from 2b and 3b Carp or Wong sit to make room
which is unfortunate, because Bader and Wong’s offensive woes shoudlnt be the issue…they werent put in the lineup to be offensive powerhouses they were there for defense…the other hitters are the problem…but no one will do anything about that, and we really ant with their contracts so we are stuck fixing 2b and CF in search for offense
-I am thinking we move Wacha in a trade on the sooner side, bringing POnce into the rotation, probably lining up with Helsley coming up to the bullpen, that also aligns us better to get a starter which seems likely to happen regardless of the offense
-I am holding out for a Leake type of trade of Fowler….CLE or SF might work…though i doubt we get anything back at all, just some salary relief…and Fowler hasnt been terrible, but another OF spot makes sense to clear with the way the IF is constructed…
-then we look for an OF to help the offense…id prefer a high AVG guy but i have no idea…Peralta seems logical as power and AVG and is controlled for one more year…woudl allow Ozuna to go and still haev room for Carlson
-JMart being moved makes sense but they are so proud of themselves for giving him that contract that i doubt it happens
-if we slump REAL bad…and Ozuna comes back…then move him to a contender for a playoff push and hope you get something nice, but i think we wont slump too bad…and stay too close to make that move…and hopefully re-sign him IMO (If we can move FowleR that is)
man this is long…sorryJuly 12, 2019 at 9:36 am #97630
Here is a trade prediction from ESPN:
3. The Cardinals acquire RHP Zack Greinke and RF David Peralta from the Diamondbacks for OF/1B Jose Martinez, RHP Alex Reyes and a prospect outside of the Cardinals’ top 10.
Any deal involving Greinke would involve a hardy negotiation over how much cash the Diamondbacks are willing to eat. This trade structure assumes that they’d eat quite a bit, which is why St. Louis would include two players they value greatly both on and off the field. But let’s face it — they don’t have a spot to deploy Martinez’s bat every day, and Reyes may have reached the point where he’s a change-of-scenery candidate.
Both Martinez and Reyes fit the mold of what it appears that Arizona is trying to do, which is to remake its payroll outlook while remaining competitive in the near term. Martinez would finally get a place to feature his elite bat every day, while Reyes would gain some fresh perspective in hopes of finding his immense upside.
If Arizona eases enough of the payroll burden, St. Louis would get the rotation topper it needs in Greinke for two more seasons beyond this one. In Peralta, the Cardinals get a bat to replace Martinez and a player who also helps the defense. The Cardinals could move Dexter Fowler back to center, where his metrics are good this season, and use Harrison Bader as a defensive super sub and pinch runner who gets occasional starts in place of Fowler against lefties.
Arizona needs at least some payroll relief and this would be a step toward that while the Diamondbacks could still credibly claim to be trying to win. The enigmatic Cardinals would get the shake-up they need so badly right now. They, like every team in the National League Central, have plenty to play for over the second half.July 12, 2019 at 10:01 am #97642
Not sure what to think. Greinke is such an odd duck, but at least he can pitch. No mention of the fact that the Cardinals are not among the teams he can be traded to without his con$ent. Unclear how big of a stumbling block that could be, but it certainly should not be ignored.
I would pass on mediocre guys like Leake and Shark. If you get someone, get someone who truly matters.July 12, 2019 at 10:11 am #97644
You hate to lose a potential star like Reyes, but the risk is high that he can never stay healthy enough to get anywhere near it. Greinke is solid and will probably stay solid. I don’t really want Peralta but as a swap for Jmart it’s not bad. At least he can play the field. If that opportunity arises, I’d probably make the move.July 12, 2019 at 11:40 am #97655
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I don’t see how this team can win the Division/get into the playoffs with Carpenter and Goldschmidt dragging down the offense. Reyes could still be a superstar. Greinke is at the end of his career. This would be another dumb move added to the recent flurry of dumb moves by the Cardinals, IMO.July 12, 2019 at 3:38 pm #97672July 13, 2019 at 1:32 am #97726
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If that would be what it would take to get Greinke, I would make that trade. Arizona would need to kick in money unless they would take on Fowler and his contract. I doubt Greinke would waive the NTC, however.July 13, 2019 at 7:50 pm #97808
I would do that Greinke deal in a heartbeat. I don’t think Reyes is going to pan out and if he does I doubt he’ll ever pitch past the 6th inning in games. I’d include 2 of Thomas, Arozonena, Garcia, Capel, or Williams.July 15, 2019 at 7:49 am #97999
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Royals deal Homer Bailey to A’s for a prospect. Article indicates that the Royals could be shopping veterans on expiring contracts seeking prospects in return(eg. Billy Hamilton). This approach is consistent with Ned Yost comments in a recent interview on MLB Radio. He indicated that the young position players they have are keepers and they like the minor league pitchers they have in the pipeline. He made it sound that that organization believes they are not far away from competing for a playoff spot again.July 15, 2019 at 8:52 am #98003
I think the Royals are a little bit delusional. They were saying up until two weeks ago that they thought they could make a playoff run this year. Instead they are competing with the Orioles for the worst record in MLB.
From what I have read the asking price for Merrifield is astronomical so it probably isn’t happening.July 15, 2019 at 10:54 am #98023July 15, 2019 at 11:40 am #98025
I keep hearing that the price on Merrifield is big, but i havent come across anything solid.
It should be high, but his performance, contract, ability and versatility, make s me see him as a very good buy and worth the investment.
his ability to be a real leadoff hitter, that checks all the boxes is enough for me. And as he isnt being paid a ton, even as he gets to the end of the contract he woudlnt be being paid an extraordinary amount if he slumps to be a part time player.
He really is what the offense is missing. Running Carp out there is criminal at this point. Edman MAY work, but he is coming down to Earth, and Munoz doesnt have a starting spot.
In all honesty I think our best leadoff hitter at this point is JMart.
I still wonder if we took on Hamilton and Duffy if we could get a better prospect price on Merrifield. Hamilton has limited use of course, and Duffy has his own warts, but both could be useful for a stretch run.July 15, 2019 at 11:53 am #98027
A while back the Royals were saying that Merrifield was the one they wanted to build the team around so I would be surprised if they traded him. I am mystified by those who want to trade Wong for just about anybody but opinions are like rear ends (including mine). They all stink.July 15, 2019 at 12:28 pm #98028
The Greinke/Peralta deal that includes Reyes is ridiculous. While its not for certain that Reyes will ever work out we better not trade him – PERIOD! Now if another year goes by and he’s still not worth a hoot that’s a difference story. We have been waiting on him since 2016 but I think next year, 2020, is the make-or-break year for Reyes.
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