The Front Office's place in all of this chaos.

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  • #91543
    Brian Walton
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    I sat right next to the LF foul pole for one Cardinals series in Dodger Stadium in 1979 (or so) and I was initially surprised when fans threw packs of gum to Baker. He seemed to love it, though I am not sure the grounds crew enjoyed picking up the excess. I mean, one pack would do it, but he was showered with 20 or 30 of them, at least. It is not like there isn’t a tub of bubble gum in the dugout, anyway, but this was a tradition started at some point that evidently continued for years. I guess the trademark toothpick came later. Seems like it would be a challenge to balance the two…

    #91548
    bicyclemike
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    It does. Yeah, Dusty was a popular player out there. My most vivid memory of a Cardinal/Dodger game in Dodger Stadium was probably around 1975. I had a good seat up from third base maybe 20-25 rows.

    The Dodgers had a runner on first, and attempted to bunt him over to second. The batter, who I do not recall but it was likely the pitcher, bunted the ball in sort of a slow looping liner towards third. Kenny Reitz was charging, and could have caught the ball in the air, but deked the runner, and let the ball drop. He then immediately grabbed it, and started a 5–6-4 double play. One of the cooler, heads-up plays I have seen live, and I had a perfect view.

    #91570
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    gscottar
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    Dusty’s firing in Washington was probably partially because they couldn’t defeat the Cubs in the playoffs but the biggest reason was that ownership didn’t want to pay him a salary that would be associated with a manager of his stature. They are willing to have a $200M payroll for players but will not cough up another few million for a top rate manager. It is really bizarre. They are on their fourth manager in the last eight years and will probably make another change soon. They are a poorly ran organization and they are getting what they deserve in my opinion. They are about to get passed in the standings by the Marlins! Ha!

    • This reply was modified 3 months ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #92244
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    14NyquisT
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    There are a couple of folks here that try to protect the FO personnel no matter what. But I haven’t seen any posts from them lately and there has been so many complaints. It might be that there is less warm blankets to wrap around them as fans are realizing who is at fault for the “chaos” as the team seems to be unraveling before our eyes.

    #92248
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    There’s still 1 or 2 of those protectors hanging around. They know who they are.

    A lot of us knew the pitching staff was going to be iffy this season and that was a lot of question marks on the staff. Those have come to fruition. On the other side, the offense is an aging group (that Heyward even pointed out much to our dislike and delusion) that has regressed. Not only has the pitching and offense regressed but we just handed out contract extensions to Carp (why?), Mikolas, and Goldschmidt. The bullpen has been good enough but the bullpen management has been highly questionable so far, especially in May. When Jordan Hicks can’t get into a game for weeks on end there are major problems. And then when he does get into a game he’s largely ineffective because he hasn’t pitched.

    #92251
    Brian Walton
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    No matter how much complaining occurs, the odds of substantive in-season changes to the front office seem very remote. It is even less likely that any front office changes would impact the players on the field and the team’s results this season.

    With four months remaining to play, those who want to repeat the same points about what might happen in the off-season if the team fails to make the playoffs, go for it. But don’t be surprised if you don’t get a lot of engagement from those less pessimistic.

    P.S. I’ve heard from more than one long-time poster who either come by less or don’t post at all anymore because of the frequent negativism. My take is that everyone receives the same privilege to express their opinions as long as the site rules are followed, but it is too bad they feel that way.

    #92258
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    thejager
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    I agree with Brian…FO changes seem an extreme unlikely event…i guess we can talk about it, but it doesnt really help anything

    personally…i like to think of ways to try to figure out how we could get out of the hole, i dont really think the FO has done the worst job at constructing the team, more that the players arent living up to their contracts and also that the FO and manager and staff seem to stubborn to make any real changes if they want to salvage the year….

    it doesnt have to be burn it to the ground or win it all mentality….i think we have lots of good talent, btu are missing key components with the results we have seen so far…to fix that means making hard decisions about it…OR you dont make any changes and are willing to incure the wrath of the fans if they dont perform… but if they keep saying everything is fine, and we see no changes made to try to do anything outside of obvious overdue ones, then i cant respect their attitude of doing what it takes

    If you arent really going to improve the team, then don’t, but at least be honest about it. If they are willing to lose their jobs over Carp and Goldy and the rest of the team figuring out how to hit, and Reyes and CMart saving the rotation or whatever, and Miller regaining his groove for the pen…then fine… but it seems like their jobs are on the line over making the playoffs or not…and to me they arent acting like that…which makes me believe the owner is not putting their feet to the fire…that losing again…is fine… that seems to be disrespectful to the fans

    i am fine with MOz and Girsch and Dewitt…i think they have earned the right to make some mistakes and wait out the return to form for players underperforming, but i just dont want to hear that they are doing everything they can or that we should be as patient as they seem

    #92265
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    gscottar
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    There is zero evidence to suggest that changes in the front office would be forthcoming anytime soon. For whatever reason everyone in power seems to be comfortable with the way things are going. Eventually the good will from our success PT (Pre Theo) will run out but we aren’t there yet.

    I am not a gambler but if I were I would be willing to wager that a majority of Cardinal fans would agree with most of these sentiments from Bernie.

    https://www.101espn.com/2019/05/30/bernies-daily-redbird-review-enough-already-wheres-the-urgency-wheres-the-effort/

    #92294
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    forsch31
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    Bernie has some valid points but I don’t totally agree with him. This is the same team that was 20-10 before the start of games on May 2. However, when NONE of your hitters, except the backup C, are hitting very well, it makes it hard to win games. Same thing with the pitching.

    There were a lot of posters who wanted the Cardinals to sign either Harper or Machado this offseason. Right now Harper has a 117 OPS+ and 0.8 bWAR. That is 12th on the Phillies this year. Machado has a 112 OPS+ and 1.3 bWAR. That is 6th on the Padres. It doesn’t appear that they would be the difference maker that some envisioned.

    I get tired of the CONSTANT complaining and the posters who want to label other posters just because they don’t believe in the same course of action. Why does someone who wants to discuss how successful the current ownership and team management has been have to be labeled a “Kool Aid drinker” or “protector” or “having blinders on”? This place used to be a place to have an educated discussion. Right now I am glad that I have been VERY busy the last month and haven’t been able to get on here as much until very recently.

    Yes, there are problems with the team. Yes, the front office has put the team together. Yes, they are on the hot seat. This team has adapted over the last 20+ years of success, why can’t it adapt again? This same “joke” of a front office brought a WS title in 2011 and the best record in the NL in 2013 and 2015.

    #92303
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    gscottar
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    Yes, there are problems with the team. Yes, the front office has put the team together. Yes, they are on the hot seat. This team has adapted over the last 20+ years of success, why can’t it adapt again? This same “joke” of a front office brought a WS title in 2011 and the best record in the NL in 2013 and 2015.

    These are all true points forsch. The question is how long should the fan base grant good will based on past success. Is there an expiration date or is it unlimited?

    #92305
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    Best record in the NL and nothing to show for because MM was the manager. Give me a break. Obviously no one is on the hot seat because the FO keeps talking about this magical 2-3-4-5 year plan that hasn’t come to fruition but they still keep selling out games and have massive revenue from BPV and tv. The only time anyone in the FO will be on the hotseat is when revenue starts drastically going down.

    #92307
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    forsch31
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    Then stop going to games but quit pointing out your dislike in every post. Do you complain when Microsoft owners make billions from selling software?

    All I ask is to give it a break. I understand your frustration but I would rather have an intelligent discussion of the team and baseball.

    #92308
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    forsch31
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    gscott, no, they don’t get an indefinite pass. It is getting close to time for something major to change if things don’t improve. However, nothing will happen in the front office until very late in the season or in the offseason.

    #92309
    Brian Walton
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    forsch31 speaks with a voice of wisdom and perspective.

    #92310
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    I haven’t been to games since they started down this downward spiral 3 seasons ago. I was going to attend some games this year but work came up and I had to back out. And your analogy about Microsoft is a horrible analogy. So much for an intelligent conversation with terrible analogies like that.

    #92312
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    atripleshyofthecycle
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    This same “joke” of a front office brought a WS title in 2011 and the best record in the NL in 2013 and 2015.

    This just isn’t true. Jeff Luhnow left in December of 2011, and while Mo was able to “ride the wake” for a bit, Luhnow obviously had some special sauce that he took with him to Houston.

    There are certainly a lot of factors, but I am amazed that so many people think that our front office has been doing a good enough job for the last few years. This team is rapidly heading in a poor direction. Mo had some great years, but if he were a player, he would have been released by now (unless his name rhymed with Nexter Prowler).

    This team had a good season the year after his death, but the untimely death of Oscar Taveras is as good of a timestamp for the start of the demise as any. The impact of his loss is something that has compounded since his loss.

    #92313
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    forsch31
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    BHC, so, in other words, you would rather continue to complain about something that you have no control over, than have an intelligent discussion.

    No, there is no difference between a baseball team and a software provider. They are both parts of the free market system within the United States to the extent that they can charge whatever price they want and you have the choice to pay it or not. Microsoft provides you something of value (software) just like the Cardinals baseball team provides you something of value (entertainment) just like MGM provides you something of value (films for entertainment).

    #92315
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    gscottar
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    My take on the Cardinal situation is a little different than most of the frustrated crowd. I have a more narrow focus on what I consider a successful season. I have a real disdain for the Cubs and finishing behind them irritates me more than anything else. I have stated before and I will say it again: I will stop criticizing the front office the day that we advance further than the Cubs do. It hasn’t happened since 2014.

    I also grow a little tired of living off of 2006 and 2011. Yes they were glorious times and this front office deserves credit for it but come on people those days are over. Since Epstein made the Cubs a beast we haven’t done jack. Let’s cut out the nostalgia and live in the present.

    I live in Razorback country and we still have fans who brag about our football championship (1964) and basketball championship (1994). Those are great memories but good grief it is time to move on and create some more success. Same with the Redbirds.

    I will be glad to have an intelligent baseball conversation with anyone but just remember that I don’t like to be told what to be believe any more than you do. Some will defend the front office regardless of what they do, some will be critical regardless of what they do. (Kind of like Fox News and MSNBC). As for me, I try to live life in the middle. I don’t like propaganda. If I agree with the front office I will say so and if I don’t I will say so but I tend to tune out those who only spew the same slanted viewpoint every single day.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 3 weeks ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #92316
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    forsch31
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    atripleshy, you notice I never said the front office has been doing a good job the last few years. I also don’t believe that Luhnow was the “secret” to this teams success for 4 seasons after he left. I also don’t believe Luhnow was the person who acquired players like Holliday, Beltran, Heyward, Peralta, etc.

    I do agree the death of Oscar Taveras was a MAJOR impact to the way this franchise has went since that time.

    #92317
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    gscottar
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    This team had a good season the year after his death, but the untimely death of Oscar Taveras is as good of a timestamp for the start of demise as any. The impact of his loss is something that has compounded since his loss.

    That tragedy certainly hurt but I would say the arrival of Epstein to Chicago marked the time of our demise. We really have never responded.

    #92321
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    Keep making your absurd analogies, forsch. There’s zero intelligent conversation in your analogies. Furthermore, you’re putting words in my mouth, but I’ve seen your behavior on VEB so I’m not shocked.

    #92323
    stlcard25
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    That tragedy certainly hurt but I would say the arrival of Epstein to Chicago marked the time of our demise. We really have never responded.

    To quote an underrated movie, rest assured, the ravages of old age will deal with the bear(s) far more cruelly than we ever could.

    Chicago’s time on top is almost up, IMO. Theo is great when he has unlimited money to spend, but historically he leaves ashes behind. Not saying this as a manner of defending the FO, per se, but you will soon see them start a big slide, IMO.

    #92324
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    forsch31
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    gscott, I don’t feel you are too critical of the team. You present a balanced point of view. I will admit I usually get on the side of the team but that is mainly because I get tired of the negative discussion.

    I don’t EVER want to acquire a major part of the Cardinal team by accepting 3-4 losing seasons. That is exactly how the Cubs acquired a major part of their team.

    #92325
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    forsch31
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    BHC, I don’t post on VEB so you are misinformed. I almost never even read that site.

    Also, I don’t see you trying to offer any sort of intelligent response to the analogies.

    #92326
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    forsch31
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    25, I agree. He will be better judged by what he can do in a couple of years. Will he jump ship and try to do the same thing with another sinking ship or will he ride out the storm that is brewing in Chicago?

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