The Front Office's place in all of this chaos.

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This topic contains 423 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by Avatar 858booyah 1 month, 3 weeks ago.

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  • #59949
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    858booyah
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    Can you objectively look at the teams were chasing in the division and in the WC and say We’ve got more talent and star power than those teams as this team is currently constructed?

    #59971
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    14NyquisT
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    What we have more of is overrated underachieving “don’t blame me” whiners that flap off despite knowing it will be disruptive to the team. Did I mention the ME-firsters. This current team is an embarrassment.

    Let’s put together a plan to reverse this situation and go into ’19 with our heads up again.

    #59975
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    PadsFS
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    Good question 858booyah.

    I like us far more than either the Braves or the Phillies, but I think the Nationals are underachieving even worse than us and will take that division.

    I like us better than the Rockies or the Giants, who are both tied with us right now.

    The Diamondbacks and Brewers are really hurting us imo. They seem like the real deal and with the Dodgers and Cubs likely winning the division or at least competing.

    The second wildcard looks easily obtainable and if the D’Backs or Brewers fall back, we could take over the 1st spot.

    I do like our team. I think Ozuna comes out of his funk in a big way and DeJong will help. If Lyons, Leone, and Gregerson get back, we could finally have the bullpen we hoped for as well.

    #59985
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    bccran
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    What about guys who were extended by their own team prior to free agency?

    #59986
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    14NyquisT
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    One can point the finger at the players, at the manager (I’m totally neutral on this) or the coaches, for the troubles facing the big team right now.

    But you can’t dismiss the fact that the farm system has declined in recent years and will continue to decline. When the top crop of high level pitchers hopefully enter MLB, what is left is not promising.
    Take Hudson, Gomber, Helsley and perhaps Ponce and Woodford away and what you have is.

    MEM: Ellis, Herget, Greene(bp)
    SPFD: Jones, O’Reilly, Shew, Tewes, Warner, Pearce, EGarcia
    PB: Oxnevad, Walsh, Meisner, Guillory, JCruz, Kruczynski
    PEO: Oviedo, Balesteri, Fagalde, Seijas, Rondon
    SC: Casadilla, Nicasio, Voyles, Dahlberg, Kraus
    JC: ODiaz, DeJesus, Zamora, EdRamirez, Sisk.
    GCL: Peirera, Solano, Pirela, DellaValle, Aker

    There is some nice talent, but is there anyone listed that presently projects into the majors? There seems to be a number of years remaining to further sink. Is there a lot of trade value there? You’re not seeing any elite type prospects. There are some ranked players here but not one making significant headway. No one that will race through levels.

    Now who do you blame for the regression of the farm system? It is the same with the Cardinals and to me very evident.

    #59988
    stlcard25
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    I blame the fans who have unrealistic expectations that a team can graduate half a dozen players to the big leagues every year, draft in the back of the draft and still mine up elite talent every season despite one fool costing them a good chunk of the draft in a critical year.

    How about we do an analysis of the young talent on each MLB and AAA club? I suspect the story won’t be as dire so that wouldn’t support the “front office is the devil” narrative.

    #59989
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    14NyquisT
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    There’s a story in the PD today about how Dewitt assesses the team. If he believes what he said, he is clearly delusional.

    #59990
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    14NyquisT
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    25…. not the devil. More like fiddling while the empire burns.

    #59992
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    gscottar
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    I have had my share of gripes about the front office but this thread seems a bit over the top to me. Mo has made some mistakes but none are what I would call crippling. They are all fixable but but the organization has to be willing to meet them head on. That has been my biggest complaint, the passivity while the northsiders have been the aggressors.

    #60006
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    PadsFS
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    14NyquisT,

    I’m not seeing a whole lot of necessary turnover at the ML/high minors either.

    Think of it like this, we are set at every position with, at a minimum, average talent for the next five years.

    CA – check (clearly)
    2B – check
    SS – check
    1B/3B – Carpenter 2020, Martinez 2022 potentially

    OF – Check O’Neill, Bader, Fowler, and Pham

    SP – Check
    RP – Likely where all of our AA/AAA starters will decend ~ Hudson, Helsley, Gomber, plus we have Leone, Tuivi, Brebbia, and Hicks around for a good long time.

    It’s a team that can buy the farm system time to replenish the ranks.

    #60009
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    PadsFS
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    gscottar

    I have had my share of gripes about the front office but this thread seems a bit over the top to me. Mo has made some mistakes but none are what I would call crippling. They are all fixable but but the organization has to be willing to meet them head on. That has been my biggest complaint, the passivity while the northsiders have been the aggressors.

    The Cubs aggression in the last two years hasn’t led to much improvement, especially on the long-term front. Their big FA signings: Darvish, Heyward, and Chatwood, have all busted to at least a degree. The big trades for Chapman, Davis, Avila, and Chapman have completely cleaned out the farm system too (Torres, Jimenez, Soler, Candelario, Cease, McKinney)

    #60011
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    mspaid
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    PadsFS:

    You do remember that the Cubs won the WS in 2016. Trading those prospects paid off. They have an outside chance to win the WS this year. We have no chance. If we keep all of the beloved prospects for the next five years and never win the WS then what good are they. Sure, we have guys ready to play all of the positions but are they any good? This business is about winning the WS. The Cubs get that. The Cardinals don’t get that or have chosen to ignore it to count their money.

    #60015
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    bccran
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    14 –

    1.) How many teams have a potential rotation including the high quality of Mikolas/Martinez/Wacha/Reyes/Flaherty/Weaver going into 2019? With guys like Gant, Gomber, and Ponce
    backing them up?

    2.) Also, in your minor league assessment you left out some talented guys in the 2018 draft. Especially Robets and Gingery. Both are mature and could be ready sooner than later.

    #60016
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    forsch31
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    bccran

    What about guys who were extended by their own team prior to free agency?

    If this is a response to my earlier post, I am referring to players who were extended by their own team prior to free agency. How many players receive their largest contract under that situation? Keep in mind that Leake was only going into his age 28 season when he signed his contract THROUGH FREE AGENCY.

    #60017
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    bccran
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    That would take a long time to research. But the owners are getting wiser and I’m not sure how many of those huge FA long term contracts are going offered going forward.
    So in this case, I’m not sure the past applies to the future.

    #60030
    bicyclemike
    bicyclemike
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    Great comments by posters. Pads, you especially did great work in the counter-point post!

    Obviously Mo has not done well of late, but that commentary had a lot of spin. Last winter, would anyone honestly take Adams, Piscotty or Grichuk over Ozuna? Ozuna has played a little over 3 months of baseball with the Cardinals. Let’s look at things a year from now and see where we are.

    The arm issue is a concern, and if that was a problem at the time of the deal, it certainly should have been checked out by management. But let’s see how this goes.

    Marco Gonzales has been great this year, and I love seeing him successful. I am glad he is getting a chance to pitch in a rotation for a good club. But O’Neill is tearing it up in AAA. Again, we will see how this deal plays out. Looks like it could be a good one for both teams, but for now Seattle has gotten the better rewards.

    If you look all-time at GM’s track records, I would submit Bing Devine’s 1968-1974 years with the Cardinals as far worse than Mo’s recent work. Devine took a club that was coming off two consecutive NL pennants, to a team that could barely play .500 ball over the next 2-8 years. And was not due to having poor players come through the ranks – it was due to consistently trading good-to-great players away, mostly younger guys, for spare parts, has-beens, and tomato cans (to use a term mostly associated with poor boxers).

    #60051
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    forsch31
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    So if the past doesn’t apply to the future, it is also not fair to judge the PAST signing of Leake to either the current conditions or even what is expected of the future. When Leake was signed, it is a given that a player of his caliber and his age at that time would receive the largest contract they had ever received. When you get to a bidding process with a history to base salary on, the amount of a contract will be larger.

    #60057
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    bccran
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    Based upon what happened to Holland and others, I’d throw the FA book out the window.

    #60072
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    SoonerinNC
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    The front office has to bear some of the responsibility. I checked WAR year to date for the Brewers and Astros. Milwaukee has a collective WAR of 21.4 from players who were acquired by trade or free agency. Houston has 17.3.

    The Cardinal have a collective WAR of 1.9 from players acquired by trade or free agency including Jose Martinez who was acquired as a minor leaguer.

    #60075
    Brian Walton
    Brian Walton
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    #60077
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    mspaid
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    Maybe this deadline will be interesting.

    #60082
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    davecubbs
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    ERA’s
    Gregerson 8.0
    Lyons 6.91
    Tuivailala 4.18
    Cecil. 3.57
    Holland. 7.54
    Bowman 5.75
    Brebbia 4.13
    Deleone 4.15
    Mayers 3.6
    Gomber 3.77
    Sheriff 6.35

    And the only 2 that can get anyone out, Hicks and Norris had a spat.

    Go look at Milwaukee’s bullpen and then ask if this front office has a clue.

    #60084
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    bccran
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    Look at the historical performances of the players brought in and compare it to their performances this year. Ozuna, Holland,
    Fowler, Deleone, and Cecil are at the top of the list. Tough to blame the FO for that. And, no, I don’t blame MM.

    #60089
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    davecubbs
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    Had 2 great seasons 2013 and 2014. Everything else over 3.50 ERA and missed all of 2016 with Tommy John surgery. Have you seen him pitch. God awful. I swear when he does get an out it is lucky. Guys are hitting the ball hard on him. That slider he relied on last year is just flat and up.

    Scouting report this winter.

    Holland has never regained his flame-throwing velocity from his days in Kansas City, where he averaged 96.4 mph on his four-seamer during All-Star campaigns in 2013-14. He averaged 93.4 mph on the pitch last year, and batters hit it at a .286 average, the second-highest mark for any of his five full seasons.

    Don’t act like they signed kimbrel and are shocked by the result here.

    #60143
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    14NyquisT
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    DeWitt is trying to tell the faithful that things are okay and that we have a good chance to make the play-offs. He can’t believe that unless he is delusional. He is a businessman and cares only of the bottom line. That’s what he is supposed to do. He has that ballpark village thing on his mind. There is little sense in believing what he says concerning the Cardinals.

    Culture: the totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns and beliefs.

    Mozeliak is in charge of baseball operations. It is he who the culture is built around. That is the same in any organization, period. It comes from the top.

    “I feel like culture is one of those topics that when everything is going great, you have a great culture. When they’re not going great, it becomes questioned,” Mozeliak said. “And I feel like when you look at how you look at the word ‘culture’ and what that means as far as, ‘Are players happy here? Do they feel like this is a place they want to be?’ Most of them would tell you yes. Are we perfect? No.

    The roster is flawed and the team is fragmented. IMO the entire organization is regressing. This will just get worse unless action is taken to change the course. Mozeliak is at the point where he is not able to change the culture or the course. He is at fault for the present conditions dragging the Cardinals baseball down.

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