The Front Office's place in all of this chaos.

Home The Cardinal Nation Forums Open Forum The Front Office's place in all of this chaos.

This topic contains 423 replies, has 35 voices, and was last updated by Avatar 858booyah 1 month ago.

Viewing 25 posts - 226 through 250 (of 424 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #92327
    BlackHillsCard
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    BHC, I don’t post on VEB so you are misinformed.

    Oddly there’s a guy on VEB who uses the same handle ‘Forsch31’ that you use here. Huh. Well my bad. I assumed it was you. I apologize for being misinformed.

    As for your analogies, they really don’t deserve a reply because its a false equivalency no matter how you try and spin it.

    #92333
    EuroWolf
    EuroWolf
    Participant

    Free

    Is living off 2011 way past its time for evaluating the FO leadership negatively? Who gets to decide how long is enough time before fans can rightfully give harsh criticism? The trend line seems apparent to me. I believe you can’t sustain complex organizations at a premier and elite level without top-level leadership. Everything else is just working on the margins.

    One fan’s discussion is another fan’s complaining. If we can’t discuss things in which we have no control over, then just shut all the boards down. There’s nothing fan boards have control over.

    If leadership is, in fact, the problem, then it is probably the most “intelligent” discussion to have. Why would you want this FO to do the re-structuring if they enabled the problems? Yes, there’s probably not a snowball’s chance in hell they will be fired mid-season, but FO moves in July are where a World Series can be won or lost. Acquiring another reliever off waivers probably won’t do the trick. You might not agree leadership to be the main problem, but to deny others that it’s a viable opinion is off base.

    Of the stuff I read (here and other boards), for every kool aid name calling, I see a countering whiner name calling. What I believe it boils down to is a lot of people want the narrative to stay in the lane they like to be in.

    #92353
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    One thing that hurts every team but some more than others is dead weight on the payroll. The Cardinals can overcome some dead weight but since they are unwilling to spend near the tax threshold they can’t take on too much unproductive salary.

    Cecil- $7.75
    Leone- $1.26
    Gregerson- $5.00
    Leake- $5.00
    Wacha- $6.35

    That is $25M that we are getting basically nothing from. Then you throw in the $8M for Gyroko, $11.7 for CMart, $11M for Miller, $16.5 for Fowler, and $2 for Waino, that is another $50M that we aren’t getting much from. There are probably others that could be added to the list but you get my point. We need to do a better job of maximizing our dollars if we aren’t willing to spend like the big boys. Tampa and Oakland have it down to a science.

    Yes, I know it is easier said than done but that is what the front office guys are paid to do right?

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #92358
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I would also add that we seem to becoming more top heavy salary wise on players over 30. That is a bit concerning.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 2 weeks ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #93978
    Avatar
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Matt Graves – FanSided:

    In a situation like this, something just has to change. As much as Mike Shildt can claim that everyone is good friends in the clubhouse, that hasn’t translated to on-field success where it really matters. Something has to change. That being said, if the Cardinals fired Mo tomorrow, I would get it. He built this mess, he could easily be the one who is held responsible.

    Recently, Dexter Fowler was on MLB Network doing an interview and he talked about how great Mike Shildt is and how he is so good for all the players which is a great change from how it seemingly was last year. I believe Shildt is a great leader and has made the dynamic in the clubhouse extremely friendly, but is it too friendly? After losing their 5th game (out of five chances) at Wrigley yesterday when the Cardinals had a four-run first inning, the mood just seemed to be passive.

    #93980
    stlcard25
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Fansided? 3/4 of TCN members are better writers. Next…

    #93984
    Avatar
    14NyquisT
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Well I like the word “passive” because it defines the ’19 Cards accurately and this has been going on for the past few seasons. Graves is entitled to give his opinion regarding the Cardinals and the passivity seems to have spread to the fan base. Those that disagree with his statements have that right also but I think what he is saying rings true. Next…

    #93987
    Avatar
    atripleshyofthecycle
    Participant

    Free

    I’ve never heard of FanSided or Matt Graves, but I can’t really argue with anything he said there.

    And, apparently, neither can the person who seems to think he’s wrong and stupid.

    #93993
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I have never read or heard anything to suggest that Mo and the front office could be in any kind of trouble, even if we miss the playoffs again this year. Why? Because business is still good. Attendance is still high, I assume tv viewership is still good, profitability is still good, and the team is just good enough to stay on the wild card fringes which should keep most people interested.

    I think the DeWitt’s really do want to win but they are business people first as as long as business is good I wouldn’t anticipate any major shake ups.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #93995
    stlcard25
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Well I like the word “passive” because it defines the ’19 Cards accurately and this has been going on for the past few seasons.

    The team has most certainly been passive, so I’ll concede that point. Yet it’s not as though the front office has been sitting on their hands the last few years. Most pundits agreed that they made one of the bigger splashes this past offseason with the Miller and Goldy moves, for instance. The entire starting outfield and much of the pitching staff have been retooled in the last two years through a series of trades, promotions and signings.

    Maybe it’s time to blame the supposedly great players for a change? I’ll go on record and say that I think Mo should be fired if the team misses the playoffs this year (and I’ve got an October vacation planned far away from any games so that should tell you what I think of the Cards’ chances) but your steady drum beat against Mo and Girsch the last few years has been misdirected, IMO.

    Like the author (who I had to go look up since you didn’t provide a documenting link), I think the talent is available to make a run, but I also believe it’s 100% mental. They’re playing tight and scared, and jettisoning the front office mid season (which is almost never done) is not going to change that.

    #93997
    stlcard25
    stlcard25
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    I think the DeWitt’s really do want to win but they are business people first as as long as business is good I wouldn’t anticipate any major shake ups.

    Mike Ilitch they most certainly are not. You’d think Dewitt would get some urgency to see a real winner again before he passes on, but it never seems to happen.

    Personally, I think the 2013-15 teams with their crazy RISP, starter ERA, etc every year thing made Dewitt think that they could compete that way every season. My suspicion is that the Front Office was keen on a rebuild around 2016 but Dewitt nixed it to keep butts in the seats by the appearance of contention every year. Factually, it may be that the tank and build model is the only way to go forward in the days of 30+ free agents being almost universally busts. Especially since (I know this will bother you, but it’s true) St Louis is a mid market team at best.

    #94017
    BlackHillsCard
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    Derrick Goold seems to be under the impression that Mo could be on the hotseat if things don’t improve.

    #94019
    BlackHillsCard
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    This tweet actually came before the one above. Apologies for getting them out of order.

    #94027
    EuroWolf
    EuroWolf
    Participant

    Free

    I think the DeWitt’s really do want to win but they are business people first as as long as business is good I wouldn’t anticipate any major shake ups.

    This might be true this year and previous years. But for how much longer? Good business people know they must consider elasticity of demand for their product, in this case Cardinals’ baseball. At some point demand will reduce with repeated failures to produce top-notch baseball. A good business person would anticipate this and attempt to change the negative influence to get ahead of the down cycle. If not for the sake of the on-field performance context, they certainly would want to do it for the inevitable business/demand decline.

    Then again, maybe they think they’ve tried to the fullest extent reasonable, but just haven’t been good for several years at what they do. If this is the case, that’s all the more reason to jettison Mo & company from the front office.

    #94029
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Personally, I think the 2013-15 teams with their crazy RISP, starter ERA, etc every year thing made Dewitt think that they could compete that way every season. My suspicion is that the Front Office was keen on a rebuild around 2016 but Dewitt nixed it to keep butts in the seats by the appearance of contention every year. Factually, it may be that the tank and build model is the only way to go forward in the days of 30+ free agents being almost universally busts. Especially since (I know this will bother you, but it’s true) St Louis is a mid market team at best.

    You are correct, I don’t agree that the Cardinals are a mid market team. I will argue until my last breath that they aren’t.

    I think the DeWitt’s and the front office are pretty much doing business the way they have for several years including our championship years. Why are the results different? IMO it is because the competition has changed. Specifically we have never and I mean never had to contend with a spending powerhouse that we have to contend with now in the Chicago Epsteins. I know everyone likes to say that you shouldn’t change your business model just because of your competition, but if you stop and think about that it is totally illogical. In almost every industry you can think of businesses have to change their ideas and ways of doing things to keep up with the competition. Otherwise, they get left behind.

    #94040
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    The San Francisco Giants are one of those teams (like the recent Tigers and Phillies of a few years ago) who are in the absolute worst position to be in, which is they have several bloated contracts attached to older players who are no longer productive and therefore almost untradeable. There is literally not much they can do but just try to tread water until those contracts expire.

    It dawned on me recently that the Cardinals are in more of a similar situation as those teams than I had realized. We like to think of our team as young because of our many youthful pitchers but we really aren’t, especially when you consider where the payroll is going.

    Yadi: Age 37 (almost), $20M, $20M
    Fowler: Age 33, $16.5M, $16.5M, $16.5M
    Goldy: Age 31, $15.5M, $26M, $26M, $26M, $26M, $26M
    Carp: Age 33, $14.75M, $18.5M, $18.5M, Opt
    Miller: Age 34, $11M, $11.5M, opt
    Waino: Age 37, $2M + incentives

    We need to STOP giving extensions to older players. It is insane! We need to get younger and more athletic.

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #94044
    Avatar
    forsch31
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Are you saying that we should say goodbye to Yadi?

    Fowler is a bad contract. Miller could be a bad contract. Cecil was a bad contract. Goldschmidt should be OK. Waino was only for 1 year. Who would play 3B for Carpenter that would be better?

    #94048
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Are you saying that we should say goodbye to Yadi?

    Fowler is a bad contract. Miller could be a bad contract. Cecil was a bad contract. Goldschmidt should be OK. Waino was only for 1 year. Who would play 3B for Carpenter that would be better?

    I am saying that Yadi’s most recent extension was debatable. If we extend him again that would be crazy.

    As for 3B, I don’t know if anyone on this roster would be better but I remember several people howling at the idea of signing Moustakas to a cheap one year deal like he got in MIlwaukee. Have you seen his stats lately? And he is only making $7M. The point is that we didn’t have to offer Carp an extension past this year but we did it anyway.

    #94049
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    This was in Goold’s chat today:

    Hello Derrick, if the Cardinals continue to play with mediocrity. Do you see a more aggressive overhaul of the current roster. Nothing major, but trading players such as Ozuna, The Martinez’s, Wong or anyone else?
    Trey

    The Cardinals started spring training with this as a real possibility. They had so many expiring contracts — and had some of them in that place on purpose. Think back to those early days of March when Carpenter, Gyorko, Mikolas, Wainwright, Ozuna, Goldschmidt and Wacha, for example, were all entering the final year of their guaranteed contract. Extensions to Carpenter, Mikolas, and Goldschmidt spoke to how confident the Cardinals were

    a) In those players.
    b) In this mix of players

    And it took away some of the flexibility they would have had to abandon this roster and move on and away if it didn’t work out. That did come as a surprise, but again it spoke to how eager they were about this roster leaving spring training. Come mid-June, the roster has less flexibility, less moving parts, and the results are starting to demand to change. It’s bind the Cardinals have put themselves in — and it didn’t have to be this way.

    Derrick Goold

    • This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Avatar gscottar.
    #94052
    Avatar
    forsch31
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    It doesn’t change that they have no one to replace Carpenter. Yeah, they could put Munoz there, but does that improve the team? They could play Gyorko there when he isn’t hurt but they still wouldn’t have anyone to play 3B next year if they didn’t pick up either Carpenter’s or Gyorko’s options. Then they would still have to come up with a 3Bman in 2021.

    #94053
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    How do we know that Munoz and Gyroko would be worse than Carp if they were playing more? His numbers are not good.

    And you don’t think they couldn’t find a 3B outside the organization for next year if Carp hadn’t been extended?

    #94054
    BlackHillsCard
    BlackHillsCard
    Participant

    Free

    Edman could also play 3B and I honestly don’t see him being worse than Carp. The Carp extension was stupid. There wasn’t a need.

    #94057
    Avatar
    forsch31
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    Your view is that they could replace Carpenter easily. There is no way of knowing. The Cardinals have Carpenter now and he is pretty good. His OPS+ has been 120 or more for 6 out of the last 7 years. He had a 143 last year. No, I don’t think they could find a 3Bman for next year that would match his production, unless they would sign Rendon and that would probably block Gorman when he is ready.

    The remarkable part about the free agent 3Bman after this year is that almost all of the “good” ones are the same age as Carpenter.

    #94059
    Avatar
    gscottar
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    For $18.5M I feel confident they could find someone to at least equal Carp’s value next year. My point is that they don’t even have that option now. They needlessly took away their flexibility for no good reason. For an organization that supposedly views the world through new age analytics they seem to throw a lot of money at players over the age of 30. It is very perplexing.

    #94062
    Avatar
    forsch31
    Participant

    Paid - Annual

    It wouldn’t be flexibility if there is no one to replace him. It doesn’t appear that there is anyone to replace him. If you want Edman there, you take a great risk on whether or not that he can handle major league pitching.

Viewing 25 posts - 226 through 250 (of 424 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

First-hand news and commentary on the St. Louis Cardinals™ and their minor league system for 20 years