June 10, 2019 at 5:45 pm #94069stlcard25ParticipantPaid - Annual
You are correct
This is as far as I read. Glad to know that you are coming around. 😂😂😂June 10, 2019 at 9:31 pm #94095
Forsch, for $18M they COULD have found a replacement for Carp outside the organization had they not extended him. Why do you keep saying otherwise? I honestly don’t understand your logic.
Whether it was free agency or a trade it could have happened. There would have been many options but we decided to shut those options off and stay the course.
June 10, 2019 at 10:23 pm #94100BlackHillsCardParticipantFree
- This reply was modified 1 year, 5 months ago by gscottar.
Because Carp is handling Major league pitching this season? They still didnt have to extend Carp when they did. He had an option year they could have just exercised after the season if they wanted. Now thats gone. Also gone is any possibility of trading him.June 11, 2019 at 12:15 pm #94151
Reading all the comments here one would get a sense that there is increasing concerns about the general trend the organization is currently taking. The Cardinal team is becoming more and more seen as pretenders and not the contenders that management said the ’19 squad would be.
Underachievement abounds. There is complaints about players up and down the roster. And now some of these complaints are coming from several of the regs here who firmly believed that the Cards would be in the play-off mix.
Something has gone awry. Where is the desire seen on the field, where is the emotion and most importantly where is the positive leadership? Why the apathy, why the disappointment and why does this team generally seem so passive about their approach to what has happened to this team that at one point was 20-10.
Just an observation but things appeared to unravel after the May 2nd game at WAS. We won the first three of a four game set. Our manager decided to rest four starters in one game. The result was a 2-1 loss in the finale. Since then we are 12-22.
Pecota: Adj playoff probability = 27.9%. Playoff prob. difference in the last 7 days = -18.4%.June 11, 2019 at 2:13 pm #94155bicyclemikeModeratorPaid - Annual
The perceived apathy might be a calm, confidence within the club that says “we are better than our record, and will show that before this thing is done so let’s not panic’.
Whether that is true, only someone around the team would know.
Realistically, there is nothing this team has shown that gives us hope that they are better than Chicago. The Cubs, at least from the looks of things , have a better front office, field manager, and player personnel than St. Louis.
We will see how that all looks two months from now. Maybe things will have gotten better by then. But for now, you cannot truthfully say anything different.June 12, 2019 at 10:48 am #94238858booyahParticipantFree
Realistically, there is nothing this team has shown that gives us hope that they are better than Chicago
or Milwaukee, Atlanta, Philly or to an extent Colorado. We’ll see how this shakes out 2 months from now has been going on for 3+ years now. If they want to get back in it then they need to make a couple moves. Plain and simply it’s not good enough.
And I’ve said since the extension. What was the rush on Carpenter? He still had a club option left. It’s almost like they applied tying up younger players philosophy and just forgot how old Carpenter was. lol he can’t even move back to first now and I’ve seen that rag arm the last couple times he’s played 3rd come full circle.
Oh but don’t worry. We’ll get fed we’ve got reinforcements coming or on the ready down on the farm or on Rehab. Hey Brett Cecil is now throwing from the mound and could be ready to throw gas on the fire by the end of July.June 12, 2019 at 11:53 am #94250June 12, 2019 at 11:56 am #94251
And I’ve said since the extension. What was the rush on Carpenter? He still had a club option left. It’s almost like they applied tying up younger players philosophy and just forgot how old Carpenter was.
I hear you. My fear is that we are quickly becoming the NL Central version of the San Francisco Giants. Too much of our payroll is tied up in older veterans who lack production and are untradeable. It is a terrible position to be in. Jason Heyward predicted this when he signed with the Cubs.June 12, 2019 at 1:05 pm #94264thejagerParticipantPaid - Annual
looking at the club’s contracts…they arent really tied up with too much…that we don’t want ….but there are 2 big ones that seem mistakes in hindsight…
Carp and Fowler…gone after 2021…to me that is one year too far off
Wong after 2020 (yes a low option but he makes a lot for what he provides offensively)
Cecil after 2020 too
Tying up Ozuna to 5yrs 100mil seems about right, and that takes him to his age 33 year…a pretty good time to get out on a player
If we could move Fowler even for a lottery ticket….i wonder if we should just go the Mike Leake route
Cleveland seems to need OFers, so does SF…neither want to spend money on dead players, but we could eat a healthy amount to make it palatable…
having 1 hard to take contract is one thing…but two is debilitating IMO
Carp seems the harder guy to move because of the FOs love of him…Fowler I think is adored too, but he seems to have better appeal on the market at the moment…andwe have better internal options for the OFJune 12, 2019 at 1:38 pm #94269
I hate paying players to play for someone else but that is what happens when you make mistakes. It is also limits what you can pay for players who are actually going to be on your own roster. Like I said the other day, for an organization supposedly ran on analytics they sure like to throw big money at players over 30.
And I still vote no on an Ozuna extension. We would have our hands completely tied payroll wise until 2021 or 2022.June 14, 2019 at 10:55 am #94441
This from VEB’s FAN PULSE thingy:
With just two wins in their last six games, concerns continue to mount among Cardinals fans. In the latest FanPulse survey, Cardinals fans gave a 23% confidence rating in the club. That is the lowest it has been this season and currently the second-lowest in the league.
Is this on the players or the front office?June 16, 2019 at 7:26 am #94566
Derrick Goold – PD
“the Cardinals have traded a sensation and potential All-Star to the Yankees. They’ve moved a 5.0-WAR player to the Tampa Bay Rays, two starters for the Mariners’ rotation, and an ascending center fielder to Cleveland. In exchange, the Cardinals received a handful of players they’ve turned to for help, but most of whom were in the minors as recently as this past week, with the exception of righthanded reliever Giovanny Gallegos.”
Not being a Monday morning QB you can still look at what we have received in trades and free agency signings and see a trend towards negative results. Not by looking at one acquisition or two but by looking at a series of poor moves. The direction and culture of this team needs to be changed and the sooner the better.June 16, 2019 at 7:31 am #94568stlcard25ParticipantPaid - Annual
Is this on the players or the front office?
90% players, 10% front office.June 19, 2019 at 10:00 am #94995
This is from a story from the Redbird Dugout 6/17/19. This are quotes and the full story can be read by clicking on the url at the end of the quotes.
I believe that the piece is spot on when identifying the true cause of the malaise that has settled in the Cardinal organization. And its not just the STL Cardinals. If you follow the affiliates its almost maddening how poorly our full-season teams are playing… day in day out.
I feel like I’ve been banging this drum for three or four seasons now, but the Cardinals roster feels cluttered. It feels cluttered because it’s a bunch of misfitting pieces that feel more like the front office is just collecting players than actually trying to build a team.
They need to pick a direction and stick with it. Are they going to spend and go after it like they claimed they were about 2019 after acquiring Goldschmidt? Apparently not. Are they going to build from within and give their young guys plentiful opportunities? Apparently not that either. The result is a team lost in the middle, just like their front office.
Find a vision. Make a plan. Pursue the plan. Win or lose, anything is better than being stuck in the middle.
The problem for the front office is that it’s really easy to sit and look at the what-ifs. Tommy Pham is hovering around a .300/.400/.500 season, which would be his second in three years, something only seven players have done in the last decade. Luke Voit is looking like he’s going to be an All Star starter. Luke Weaver was off to a better start than any Cardinals’ starting pitcher before a UCL injury. And, based on his start to the season, Carson Kellywould be the second best hitter if you plugged him into the current Cardinals lineup.
You see uncertainty when they commit to Randal Grichuk in center field. And then to Dexter Fowler. And then to Tommy Pham. And then to Harrison Bader. And maybe next to Tyler O’Neill or Lane Thomas and then Dylan Carlson. If they had a vision of what they wanted to be, they’d stick with one of those guys beyond the first sign of trouble.June 19, 2019 at 2:49 pm #95012Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - AnnualJune 20, 2019 at 8:25 am #95128
IMO the Cards should give Ponce a chance to be that starter we are looking for. The outfield needs to be sorted out for maximum production because right now the mediocrity won’t cut it.
ps…. Shildt has little credibility left. Same story different game.June 21, 2019 at 12:45 pm #95335
IMO, the team needs a true leader. A leader at the plate. A guy that leads by example. Management thought that Goldschmidt was that guy but hasn’t shown much of that sort of leadership. Ozuna had a few weeks of being that guy and DeJong has had some moments but not sustained. Where is that guy that opposing pitchers have fear of? Where is there an All-Star this team? The votes they got in years past have evaporated or expired.
The FO keeps searching for Mr.Right but lately has missed the boat and paid big bucks for more mediocrity or worse yet. Recently there have been some of our prospects that have shown promise but more of them are playing with other teams.June 21, 2019 at 1:39 pm #95339atripleshyofthecycleParticipantFree
14NyquisT, that story you posted a couple of days ago hits the nail on the head. The front office has just been collecting players and not building a team. They have no discernible vision or plan.
Now they want to be buyers and contend. Great. But to be that, you need to be just a couple of players away. What couple of players are going to push this team over the top? Regardless of the answer to that question, if there even were one, Mo will do his usual and go out and grab us a Gyorko and a Cecil and then declare victory.
I’m on the edge of my seat.June 21, 2019 at 7:20 pm #95365mudvilleParticipantPaid - Annual
To me it looks like MO was building a team. Going into the season every position looked like it was going to be held by a player with star potential…. Molina, Goldschmidt, Wong, DeJong, Carpenter, Ozuna, Bader, Fowler. What’s not to like about that lineup, at least, on paper? Then, there is the much heralded pitching, plus Andrew Miller. I thought this team was going to play the whole year like they did for the first month. And why shouldn’t they?June 22, 2019 at 9:58 am #95415
Going into the season every position looked like it was going to be held by a player with star potential…. Molina, Goldschmidt, Wong, DeJong, Carpenter, Ozuna, Bader, Fowler.
That’s some mediocre power there. At least one of them will make the All-Star team. Every team needs at least one representative!June 27, 2019 at 9:14 am #95950
Mo receives a lot of heat for the mess we are in, and deservedly so, but here is the thing: Mr. DeWitt has to take some of the blame too. Brian astutely pointed out to me once that Mo only spends what he is allowed to spend. So I draw two conclusions from that:
1. DeWitt will not allow Mo to spend up to and past the luxury tax to overcompensate for mistakes (Fowler, Cecil, Carp, etc…). Of course Theo does get to spend whatever it takes.
2. DeWitt apparently won’t let Mo do a rebuild either, which many of us on this board have clamored for. Now I don’t know if Mo has advocated for a rebuild but DeWitt has publicly stated that the Cardinals will not do that type of thing.
So we can’t go forward and we can’t go backwards. We are just stuck in neutral.
Now, should a team be able to build a strong contender for $163M? Yes, but as we see with teams like the Cubs, Red Sox and to some extent the Yankees and Dodgers (not as much as you think), if they make a mistake then they just go buy someone else to make up for it. Mo apparently doesn’t have that luxury.
I am not a big Mo defender but ultimately the direction of any organization starts at the very top, and that is DeWitt.June 27, 2019 at 9:43 am #95956
g…One may come to that conclusion but you have to put the blame on Mozeliak because the money he was allowed to spend was spent haphazardly. You all know the list of poor acquisitions and extensions. No responsibility taken.
DeWitt is distracted with that Ballpark Village thing and may have lost interest in what is happening on the field.June 27, 2019 at 10:09 am #95957
Interesting comments from Ben Frederickson in his most recent chat:
QUESTION: Is Cardinals Chairman Bill DeWitt Jr. disconnected from the team’s struggles?
BENFRED: In short, no. I’ve often been struck by the detailed perspective Mr. DeWitt can offer on, for example, prospects that the general Cardinals fan would not be able to pick out of a lineup. Whether it’s a minor leaguer on a hot streak, or the tone of media coverage surrounding the team, the conversations I’ve had with him — including recent conversations — show he’s very much in tune with what’s taking place on all levels of his team.
If anything, I think a case could be made that the disconnect, if there is one, is between the Cardinals and their fans when it comes to how the team is viewed.
The fans see the Cardinals as the team that plays a 162-game schedule and does or does not make the postseason.
The Cardinals see the MLB team as the face of a body of work that includes a lot of things: player development, minor league teams, overseas academies, the business side, Ballpark Village and a bunch of other elements.
It has surprised me that Mr. DeWitt has not demanded more as the Cardinals’ hold on the division has loosened and slipped away. But disconnected is not the term I would use.
QUESTION: You have said the Cardinals have “allowed their firm grip on the NL Central to slip away.” How?
BENFRED: The Cardinals allowed it by underestimating their competition in the division, underestimating the construction of a team they felt could compete for the division, and perhaps most importantly, under-delivering on the kind of in-season adjustments and moves that could have transitioned a team that was going to miss the postseason into one that could make a postseason run. I’d add they have hurt themselves by adopting an outlook that focuses on how close they are to the new division leaders instead of one that focuses on how much ground they have surrendered.
Let’s go back to the past offseason. The Cardinals made a massive splash with the Paul Goldschmidt trade. I loved it. then they signed Andrew Miller. I liked it. Then, after talking about adding a left-handed hitter who could do damage, they traded for Drew Robinson and tried to present him as a difference-maker. I did not get it. Then nothing else happened. A case could be made that another starter was needed, but the Cardinals liked their depth. That depth started to erode as Carlos Martinez was hurt. There have been more losses since due to injury and under-performance, and nothing else has happened. As you say, hindsight is easy and I’ll acknowledge that. But I do think the past three seasons suggest the cardinals have a tendency to leave too much up to chance when constructing a team and not acting quickly enough when that team needs to be strengthened. Especially in a division this competitive.June 27, 2019 at 10:54 am #95961Euro DandyParticipantFree
These are the two most salient points from the BenFred quotes above that I believe frustrate many fans.
I’d add they have hurt themselves by adopting an outlook that focuses on how close they are to the new division leaders instead of one that focuses on how much ground they have surrendered.
But I do think the past three seasons suggest the cardinals have a tendency to leave too much up to chance when constructing a team and not acting quickly enough when that team needs to be strengthened.June 27, 2019 at 11:36 am #95975Brian WaltonKeymasterPaid - Annual
DeWitt is not distracted. I have interacted with him enough to agree with BenFred’s characterization. I do think the suggestion that the focus has been on the division gap instead of the bigger picture feels real to me. I say “feels real” because there is always more going on than we are told.
We need to remind ourselves that what is said to the media and the public will never include everything that is discussed around the conference room table. For example, profitability is a major factor in the behavior of this (and every other successful business in the world), but in the closely-kept MLB, it is a state secret.
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