TCN’s 2021 Top 50 Prospect List Countdown

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  • #149023
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    #149048
    Avatarbccran
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    25 – I’m looking for quality over quantity. That’s IMHO where we’re short in the OF. Love the queue at 3B with Gorman, Montero, Nunez (maybe), and Walker. Wish we had that type of queue in the OF. The Toerners and Nootbaars don’t win World Championships for you.

    #149050
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    25 – I’m looking for quality over quantity.

    Agreed. You’d like to have some potential superstars out there. I think Fletcher is one. Barring that, you’d like to have guys who could be above average. Torres is that guy. We could use something better. Perhaps the team is resigned to having to sign or trade for that quality of player next year. Depending on how 2021 goes, I could see it playing out. It would be nice if Carlson and O’Neill emerged into what they could be next year to either lock down or show that the OF upgrade is needed.

    Fwiw, at his best I could see Toerner being an early career Matt Carpenter type. Good average and OBP with lots of doubles and solid defense in CF. He will probably be at Memphis next year so we will get to see whether he’s got a chance to be a big leaguer.

    #149060
    Avatarbccran
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    Our outfielders full season (compiled if they played at multiple MILB levels) minor league OPS in 2019 –

    Thomas – .807
    O’Neill – .816
    Williams – .858
    Carlson – .909

    Capel – .682
    Hurst – .586
    Pinder – .560
    Toerner – .752
    Nootbaar – .712
    Denton – .540
    Plummer – .606
    Cedeno – .707
    Machado – .690
    Benson – .471
    Vinsky – .711
    Espinal – .734
    Fuller – .708
    Warner – .819
    Fletcher – .666
    Garcia – .655
    Torres – .747
    Montano – .561
    Romeri – .809
    Jimenez – .845
    Burgos – .999 (mostly in the DSL)

    Arozarena, Mieses, Riley, Ynfante, Solere, and Del Rio are no longer with the organization, so I’ve omitted them.

    This is not meant to be negative, 25. Just factual on why we need to add several high ceiling OF bodies at the higher levels. O’Neill type trades.

    #149068
    Avatarforsch31
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    Thomas – trade
    O’Neill – trade
    Williams – trade
    Carlson – 1st

    Capel – trade
    Hurst – 3rd
    Pinder – 7th
    Toerner – 28th
    Nootbaar – 8th
    Denton – 2nd
    Plummer – 1st
    Cedeno – IFA
    Machado – IFA
    Benson – 20th
    Vinsky – 15th
    Espinal – Trade (released in March according to MLB.com)
    Fuller – 15th
    Warner – 40th
    Fletcher – 2nd
    Garcia – IFA
    Torres – trade
    Montano – .561
    Romeri – 12th
    Jimenez – IFA
    Burgos – IFA (traded to Marlins for Austin Dean)

    bcc, the Cardinals have traded off Arozarena and Voit. They have acquired O’Neill, Thomas, Williams, Dean and Capel through trades. You have run down most of the OFs in the system. Now you want them to trade for some more OFs. Are you sure they will be able to identify the right one(s)?

    #149072
    Avatarbccran
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    Yes. If person being traded for is a former high draft pick who has produced consistently all the up the ladder in the minors. And at AAA has had a .300+ BA, .350+ OBP, and a .850+ OPS.

    #149079
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    BC, who are you willing to trade to get said players? Most teams covet those players themselves and thus they are hard to pry away. As much as I’d love to trade for some of the upper minors guys I think will perform, we have to be realistic and say that we don’t have many trade chips that would bring back a top 50 position player. In fact, we may only have three players who could do that and two are prospects (Carlson and Gorman), leaving only Jack Flaherty as an option. Unless we wanted to trade both Liberatore and Thompson or Oviedo too.

    #149080
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    With all due respect, bccran, how many outfielders have put up those kind of numbers at Triple-A and aren’t already in the majors?

    And for a hitting prospect of that quality, are you willing to trade a Liberatore or Thompson to get him?

    P.S. O’Neill would have fallen far short of your lofty criteria in all areas.

    #149081
    Avatarforsch31
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    Well that should narrow it down to very few possibilities. Most of the ones who fall into those stats will cost a lot. Higher than the Cardinals have done, traditionally. Or, they are the superstar prospects who are untouchable.

    #149084
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
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    Even Randy does not measure up… So that totally explains why the Cardinals traded him. He wasn’t good enough. The mystery is finally solved. What an eye-opener!!! 😉

    #149085
    Avatarforsch31
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    Just for the fun of it, I looked up all the AAA players who had a batting average of .300 or above and an OPS of .800 or above in 2019. Here is the list:

    Ryan LaMarre – released
    Mason Williams – released
    Daniel Johnson – Indians #18 prospect
    Yonathan Daza – Rockies #11 prospect
    Mark Payton – 29 year old Reds unranked prospect
    Yadiel Hernandez – 33 year old Nationals unranked prospect
    Mike Gerber – free agent
    Yasmany Tomas – 30 year old with over 1100 major league ABs
    Jim Adduci – 35 year old free agent
    Connor Joe – 28 year old Rockies unranked prospect

    I guess it really shows that most players that fit within bccran’s guideline in AAA are journeymen.

    (This is from MiLB.com. After further review, it only shows hitters who had 2.7 ABs/league game. That will narrow the scope quite a bit.)

    #149086
    Avatarbccran
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    That’s beneath you, Brian. It’s one thing to be condescending. It’s another to be wrong on top of it.

    For your edification, Arozarena had the following slash line at Memphis –

    .358/.435/.593/1.028

    #149087
    Avatarforsch31
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    bccran, does his lines for 2017 and 2018 qualify as producing all the way up the ladder?

    2017 – .266/.346/.437/.783
    2018 – .274/.359/.433/.792

    #149089
    Avatarbccran
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    Okay, Forsch. Let’s play a game. How about Daniel Johnson from the Indians. The former New Mexico State Aggie. What would it take to get him? Maybe Rondon, Whitley, and Woodford? Or is that too much?

    #149090
    Avatarforsch31
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    According to Baseball Reference, there were 82 players (OF, INF and C) with at least 102 at bats in the PCL in 2019 that hit at least .300. Justin Williams was #15 and fits bccran’s slash line requirements. Austin Dean was #21 and also fit the requirements.

    #149091
    Avatarbccran
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    Forsch, I said produced all the way up the ladder, and then set the AAA slash line I would like to see. Read it again.

    #149092
    Avatarforsch31
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    bccran, I really don’t care to acquire him. He is basically the same player as Justin Williams. Why would we want to acquire another one? I thought the idea was to upgrade.

    #149093
    Avatarforsch31
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    bccran, why don’t you re-read my question. I asked if his slash lines qualified as producing all the way up the ladder. It’s hard to come up with what you are looking for if you are going to leave the criteria vague enough to change them when you want.

    #149095
    Avatarbccran
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    Why do you want to argue, Forsch? It’s a waste of time and energy. And playing around with semantics is boring.

    #149096
    Avatarforsch31
    Participant

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    You are the one who wants to “play a game” and you are asking me about arguing??? I have seen far too many times that you make statements about who to acquire or how someone is not good enough and then try to change the direction of the discussion when confronted with facts that are different than what your beliefs are. What is wrong with me trying to clarify what, exactly, you are trying to look for in a player?? It’s hard to discuss points that are vague.

    #149097
    Brian WaltonBrian Walton
    Keymaster

    Paid - Annual

    bccran said:

    That’s beneath you, Brian. It’s one thing to be condescending. It’s another to be wrong on top of it.

    For your edification, Arozarena had the following slash line at Memphis –

    .358/.435/.593/1.028

    So you are only cherry picking the BEST year of the player at Triple-A? How convenient to your point.

    Per MiLB.com, Randy’s CAREER line at Triple-A is .285/.372/.454/.826. That falls short in two of your three criteria.

    P.S. The topic of being wrong is one you should probably avoid…

    #149111
    Avatarbccran
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    No, Brian, I’m looking at the AAA year just before being called up. When the player is ready to make the big step. It’s not cherry picking, it what I meant all along. Are you calling a poster “wrong” and being confrontational in the role of a poster or as our leader/moderator? Which hat are you wearing when you jump on someone? Do you want posters to always have to be concerned about being “called out” on this recreational forum? Or do you want it to be a fun place to be?

    #149118
    stlcard25stlcard25
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    You should expect to be called out when you are wrong. As far as the recreational aspect, some enjoy not having to read about their favorite team’s players being put down constantly.

    As far as what you are looking for, bccran, it seems obvious that you desire is to reverse engineer the Arozarena trade. Given the unpredictable aspect of minor leaguers, wouldn’t it be a huge risk to make another reactionary trade of a Liberatore or a Thompson to get a position prospect that may or may not pan out? If one of those two is playing well in 2022 and we got another middling player, you’d skewer Mo again for making such a bad trade.

    #149120
    Avatarbccran
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    Okay, Forsch, instead of being picky, picky about the arbitrary qualifications set forth by a poster, why not just say a really good all around outfielder both on the field and at the plate who’s now major league ready. Whom you can trade for and pay him the minimum as he’s brought up and starts his MLB career. Tyler O’Neill had shown a lot of power at Jackson and Tacoma before the Cards traded Marco for him. What player in the middle to upper minors in the Cards system has O’Neill’s ceiling, if he can cut down on his Ks? And no one shed a lot of tears when Marco was traded.

    #149122
    stlcard25stlcard25
    Participant

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    To further a discussion point that bccran always uses, that the Cards use their pitching depth to acquire hitting help, he is at least partially right. I’d also argue that typically, the Cards have not had the same upside of talent in the OF that they do now. Since the death of Oscar Taveras, they’ve had a mix of veterans with high floors (Moss, Jay), young guys who were non top prospects (Grichuk, Piscotty, Pham), and two attempted splash moves that didn’t work out particularly great (one year of good Heyward who then left and two years of average Ozuna).

    What they didn’t have at any of those points, IMO, was the talent that’s in the OF currently. They have not had a Dylan Carlson type since Taveras who was a top 20 prospect and has the tools to be a star. They did not have a Tyler O’Neill, top 50 prospect who has shown great power and Gold Glove defense (Grichuk was never even close to as good a defender). Bader has proven to be an elite glove in CF who is good for at least 2 WAR/year in the proper role. Who else have the Cards had with that attribute since Jim Edmonds roamed CF? Then there’s Lane Thomas, who had an excellent breakout in Springfield in 2018 when healthy for the first time and had a hot finish to 2019 in St Louis. I think Thomas can be at least a Piscotty like player for the Cards.

    So yeah, they have some unproven potential there…but it’s better potential than at any point since the Oscar Taveras days. That’s why the Cards should be hesitant to go trading for a starter to plug up the system for those guys.

Viewing 25 posts - 176 through 200 (of 397 total)
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